Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

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Spindler81
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Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by Spindler81 » 29 Mar 2020 04:23

I recently acquired a MVSN Blackshirts helmet that was recovered in vicinity of Rossosh, Russia. I am attempting to try to find which regiment and/or "M" battalion it belonged to. Does anyone know which Blackshirt "M" battalions of the Italian 8th Army were in vicinity of Rossosh, Russia in Dec. 1942/Jan. 1943 during Soviet Operation Little Saturn? (see map for position)

A thread on a very similar topic (viewtopic.php?f=75&t=72085) said the following Blackshirt regiments/battalions were assigned to the Italian 8th Army:

Blackshirt Group "23 March", including:
Battalion Group "Valle Scrivia"
V CCNN Battalion
XXXIV CCNN Battalion
XLI CCNN Battalion
Battalion Group "Leonessa"
XIV CCNN Battalion
XV CCNN Battalion
XXXVIII CCNN Weapon Battalion

Blackshirt Group "3 January", including:
Battalion Group "Tagliamento"
LXIII CCNN battalion
LXXIX CCNN battalion
LXXIX weapons battalion (Army)
Battalion Group "Montebello"
VI CCNN battalion
XXX CCNN battalion
XII CCNN battalion

Eugenio Corti’s book states that the "Tagliamento" and "Montebello" "M" battalions of Blackshirt Group "3 January" (Raggruppamento CC.NN. "3 Gennaio") of the Italian XXXV Corps were in vicinity of Chertkovo, Russia launching counterattacks against the Soviet advance at the Battle of Arbuzovka as part of a breakout for the Italian 8th Army in Dec. 1942.

Book "German Field Commands: Divisions (292d-327th), Part XII" (pg. 24/32) notes that the Italian II Corps was in vicinity of Rossosh, Russia (approx. 60km N/NW of Chertkovo) in the winter of 1942. Therefore, were it appears that the"Valle Scrivia" and "Leonessa" "M" battalions of the Blackshirt Group "23 March" (Raggruppamento CC.NN. "23 Marzo") were part of the Italian II corps fighting in vicinity of Rossosh in Dec. 1942.

This is my best guess and as far as I have been able to get. I would appreciate any additional information or help with my historical search. Thank you!

-Preston
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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by jwsleser » 29 Mar 2020 20:16

Rossosc was the HQ location for the C.A. Alpino. I haven't found anything that states any of the CC.NN. units were located in that area.

The ragg. CC.NN. «3 gennaio» was assigned to the XXXV C.A. and was defending the center of the d.f. «Pasubio» position. The ragg. CC.NN.. «23 marzo» was assigned to the II C.A. and was initially with the d.f. «Ravenna». From the few detailed accounts I have on the fighting around/in Rossosc, no CC.NN. units were involved.

During the battle and retreat, it was always possible that some stray CC.NN. soldiers ended up in/near Rossosc. All my sources indicate that no CC.NN. units operated in that area. Of course, you are asking about a helmet that was found near Rossosc. There are many paths a single helmet can take to arrive at Rossosc.

v/r Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by Spindler81 » 29 Mar 2020 22:19

jwsleser wrote:
29 Mar 2020 20:16
Rossosc was the HQ location for the C.A. Alpino. I haven't found anything that states any of the CC.NN. units were located in that area.

The ragg. CC.NN. «3 gennaio» was assigned to the XXXV C.A. and was defending the center of the d.f. «Pasubio» position. The ragg. CC.NN.. «23 marzo» was assigned to the II C.A. and was initially with the d.f. «Ravenna». From the few detailed accounts I have on the fighting around/in Rossosc, no CC.NN. units were involved.

During the battle and retreat, it was always possible that some stray CC.NN. soldiers ended up in/near Rossosc. All my sources indicate that no CC.NN. units operated in that area. Of course, you are asking about a helmet that was found near Rossosc. There are many paths a single helmet can take to arrive at Rossosc.

v/r Jeff
Jeff-

Thank you for the detailed information, I appreciate it. Yes, there is an infinite number of ways the helmet could have wound up in the vicinity of Rossosh. I was able to find a document from the National Archives "No.72. Records of German Field Commands: Divisions (292d-327th), Part XII" (see pic 1; http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/guides ... ide_72.pdf)that shows the Italian 2d Corps at Rossosh in the summer 1942 conducting movements and defensive operations (see pic 2), and another for the Italian 2d Corps moving in vicinity of Rossosh in October-November 1942 (see pic 3). This combined with the fact that the Raggruppamento CC.NN. "III Gennaio" of the Italian XXXV Corps was in vicinity of Chertkovo, Russia launching counterattacks against the Soviet advance, leads me to believe the helmet is from the Raggruppamento CC.NN. “23 Marzo”. But that's just a best guess. I wish I could find the specific "M" battalion it was from, but I'm doubtful if that level of detailed locations from this extremely chaotic area and time is available. Thanks for your input!

-Preston
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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by jwsleser » 30 Mar 2020 18:12

Preston

«23 marzo» is likely as good a guess as you can make with the available information.

I did some more digging and found that the d.f. «Cosseria» retreated and was ordered to establish a defensive position in the 'zona di Rossosc' on 23 decembre. Attached to the «Cosseria» was the gruppo tattico Leonessa I. This appears to be the XIV big. cc.nn.. Gruppo tattico Leonessa II (XV btg. cc.nn.) was further south attached to the d.f. «Ravenna».

Given the limited information, this is the likely candidate for your helmet. Of course, not enough data to fully establish provenance.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by Spindler81 » 30 Mar 2020 22:53

jwsleser wrote:
30 Mar 2020 18:12
Preston

«23 marzo» is likely as good a guess as you can make with the available information.

I did some more digging and found that the d.f. «Cosseria» retreated and was ordered to establish a defensive position in the 'zona di Rossosc' on 23 decembre. Attached to the «Cosseria» was the gruppo tattico Leonessa I. This appears to be the XIV big. cc.nn.. Gruppo tattico Leonessa II (XV btg. cc.nn.) was further south attached to the d.f. «Ravenna».

Given the limited information, this is the likely candidate for your helmet. Of course, not enough data to fully establish provenance.

Pista! Jeff
Awesome! Thank you Jeff, this is great!

-Preston

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Spindler81
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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by Spindler81 » 30 Mar 2020 22:56

Spindler81 wrote:
30 Mar 2020 22:53
jwsleser wrote:
30 Mar 2020 18:12
Preston

«23 marzo» is likely as good a guess as you can make with the available information.

I did some more digging and found that the d.f. «Cosseria» retreated and was ordered to establish a defensive position in the 'zona di Rossosc' on 23 decembre. Attached to the «Cosseria» was the gruppo tattico Leonessa I. This appears to be the XIV big. cc.nn.. Gruppo tattico Leonessa II (XV btg. cc.nn.) was further south attached to the d.f. «Ravenna».

Given the limited information, this is the likely candidate for your helmet. Of course, not enough data to fully establish provenance.

Pista! Jeff
Awesome! Thank you Jeff, this is great!

-Preston
Jeff, where did you find this information? I'd like to read up on it as well. Thanks.

-Preston

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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by jwsleser » 31 Mar 2020 02:11

Preston

The information is from the USSME official history Le operation delle unità italiane al front russo (1941-1943).

From the history of the M.V.S.N., gruppo tattica «Leonessa I» comprised the XIV btg. CC.NN., a half of the compagnia mortai da 81, and half of the compagnia da 47 c.c from the XLI btg. CC.NN. armi anticarro e di accompagnamento.

v/r Jeff
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5th Greek Regiment
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Re: Blackshirt Units with Italian 8th Army near Rossosh?

Post by Spindler81 » 31 Mar 2020 21:52

jwsleser wrote:
31 Mar 2020 02:11
Preston

The information is from the USSME official history Le operation delle unità italiane al front russo (1941-1943).

From the history of the M.V.S.N., gruppo tattica «Leonessa I» comprised the XIV btg. CC.NN., a half of the compagnia mortai da 81, and half of the compagnia da 47 c.c from the XLI btg. CC.NN. armi anticarro e di accompagnamento.

v/r Jeff
Thanks for all the help Jeff, this has been extremely informative! I appreciate it!

-Preston

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