Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
Futurist
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Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by Futurist » 21 Nov 2020 06:37

Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia? I know that the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 was one of the major factors behind Mussolini's rise to power in Italy in 1922, but Italy also had other problems in the aftermath of World War I (please see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso ) and there was also widespread anger in Italy at Italy's "mutilated victory" in World War I, with many Italians believing that Italy should have gotten more at the post-World War I peace talks for Italy's huge sacrifices in World War I, especially (but not only) in human lives.

Anyway, what do you think?

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 21 Nov 2020 11:27

Futurist I do not think that he would be able to come to power without red threat. It was crucial that Mussolini and fascists got support from monarchy and other influential circles which felt threaten by communism, socialism and anarchism. You had really big problems during ''Bieno roso''. These circles were thinking they will be able to control fascism also. And in the case of Italy they pretty much did also because king was head of the army forces. It was quite the same also in the case of Hitler in Germany. Yet there miscalculation was made and Hitler soon liberated himself and the Nazi party from control of the old elites. Italy hungry for new colonies joined Hitler in war only when he already won in the western front.

However in Spain it was different. The so called bourgeoisie or part of it needed the help from radical left in fight against fascist attack.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by Futurist » 22 Nov 2020 00:06

SloveneLiberal wrote:
21 Nov 2020 11:27
Futurist I do not think that he would be able to come to power without red threat. It was crucial that Mussolini and fascists got support from monarchy and other influential circles which felt threaten by communism, socialism and anarchism. You had really big problems during ''Bieno roso''. These circles were thinking they will be able to control fascism also. And in the case of Italy they pretty much did also because king was head of the army forces. It was quite the same also in the case of Hitler in Germany. Yet there miscalculation was made and Hitler soon liberated himself and the Nazi party from control of the old elites. Italy hungry for new colonies joined Hitler in war only when he already won in the western front.

However in Spain it was different. The so called bourgeoisie or part of it needed the help from radical left in fight against fascist attack.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso
I'm just wondering if a failed Bolshevik coup in Russia (akin to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Days ... %20Days%20(Russian%3A%20%D0%98%D1%8E%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5,against%20the%20Russian%20Provisional%20Government. ) would be enough to make Italians afraid of Communism.

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 22 Nov 2020 09:17

Well Italian radical left responsible for ''Biennio Rosso'' surelly got stronger and encouraged by Bolshevik success.

Concerning July 1917 events as i understand the coup was premature, many bolsheviks argued that even in October 1917 it was too early. However specially Lenin pushed it. After Kornilov tried his right wing coup government of Kerenski again allowed Bolshevik party hoping they can be useful against ring-wing threat.

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by Futurist » 22 Nov 2020 22:25

SloveneLiberal wrote:
22 Nov 2020 09:17
Well Italian radical left responsible for ''Biennio Rosso'' surelly got stronger and encouraged by Bolshevik success.
So, a Bolshevik success would have been much more emboldening to the Italian success than a Bolshevik failure, correct?
Concerning July 1917 events as i understand the coup was premature, many bolsheviks argued that even in October 1917 it was too early. However specially Lenin pushed it. After Kornilov tried his right wing coup government of Kerenski again allowed Bolshevik party hoping they can be useful against ring-wing threat.
Yep. IMHO, Kerensky should have allied with Kornilov to crush the Bolsheviks. This could have been a Russian equivalent of Germany's Ebert-Groener Pact, but a year earlier.

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 22 Nov 2020 22:43

I am pretty much sure success would have been much more emboldening yes.

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Re: Does Mussolini still come to power in Italy if there is no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Post by Futurist » 24 Nov 2020 21:18

SloveneLiberal wrote:
22 Nov 2020 22:43
I am pretty much sure success would have been much more emboldening yes.
OK; that's what I strongly suspected.

And of course if there is no Fascist takeover in Italy in the 1920s (or later), then the Italian monarchy survives up to the present-day, correct?

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