Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

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Urmel
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Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Urmel » 12 Sep 2021 15:13

I was lucky enough to get this published in the Australian Naval History Society's Naval Historical Review.

Comments and suggestions always welcome.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2021/09/12/n ... ser-force/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Dili
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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Dili » 14 Oct 2021 00:21

Hi
The ships were deploying to Dodecanese to subsequently do raids, not doing a raid.
The issue with 6" is overstretched. Several contemporary US cruisers had even worse - 3 guns in same cradle instead of 2 - and no one talks about it. Some long range hits made in WW2 by 6" guns were Italian.
It appears to me you listed Standard load and not Full load in comparison despite what you say there . With full load you can see a significant difference between both cruisers reflecting their comparative sizes better.
The British cruiser armor was wiser but was not always belt since it basically protected ammunition depots locally except the belt over machinery. While the Italian ship had a large area with 25mm belt which made it pretty much useless and protecting non vital areas.
No 37/54 AA in these cruisers. 20 AA were added and also replaced 40/39 . 13.2 remained.
It is best to not consider this a class with Attendolo, Aosta, and Abruzzi pairs. That is why i am against using the Condottieri tag that English authors seems very attracted. It just induces mistakes.
The major problem with this ships were their sea stability, that affected their fire quality more than the gun.

I lack time so this is succinct.

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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Urmel » 14 Oct 2021 12:38

Thanks for the comments and catching the errors. Please see below.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
The ships were deploying to Dodecanese to subsequently do raids, not doing a raid.
Yes. Not sure I am saying differently?
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
The issue with 6" is overstretched. Several contemporary US cruisers had even worse - 3 guns in same cradle instead of 2 - and no one talks about it. Some long range hits made in WW2 by 6" guns were Italian.
Which one? If it was one of the Garibaldis, the guns were completely different.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
It appears to me you listed Standard load and not Full load in comparison despite what you say there . With full load you can see a significant difference between both cruisers reflecting their comparative sizes better.
Yes, not sure what happened there. Will need to correct that.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
The British cruiser armor was wiser but was not always belt since it basically protected ammunition depots locally except the belt over machinery. While the Italian ship had a large area with 25mm belt which made it pretty much useless and protecting non vital areas.
Noted.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
No 37/54 AA in these cruisers. 20 AA were added and also replaced 40/39 . 13.2 remained.
Yes that's an error.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
It is best to not consider this a class with Attendolo, Aosta, and Abruzzi pairs. That is why i am against using the Condottieri tag that English authors seems very attracted. It just induces mistakes.
That's what I am saying. Nevertheless, the term exists and is being used, so it's best to address it head-on in my view.
These vessels became what is often referred to as the Condottieri-class of 12 light cruisers, even though they were not really a single class. The 12 Condottieri were laid down in five sub-classes, the design conceptualization of which evolved over almost a decade. The final Condottieri of the Abruzzi sub-class reached almost twice the size of the initial di Giussano sub-class and followed a completely different design concept.
Dili wrote:
14 Oct 2021 00:21
The major problem with this ships were their sea stability, that affected their fire quality more than the gun.
There were serious issues with the guns and the ammunition.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Dili
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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Dili » 14 Oct 2021 21:24

A fast search lead me to Montecuccoli vs HMS Hebe, i think one or two of old light cruisers also had hits at long range.
Check HMS Berwick seems to have been a hit magnet.

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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by gttf » 14 Oct 2021 23:57

Hello,
it seems to me that HMS Berwick was hit twice by Pola.
Regards

Fabrizio

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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Urmel » 15 Oct 2021 09:31

Pola was an 8" cruiser though?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Dili
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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by Dili » 15 Oct 2021 20:40

Yes Pola was 8" but is was also acommon cradle 2 gun turret, but there is some doubt about who hit in one of those combats the alternative a 6". If i have time i'll check O´Hara

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Re: Italy's Light Cruiser Force - the Condottieri

Post by gttf » 15 Oct 2021 21:37

That's could be interesting: all the sources I have give HMS Berwick as hit by two 8" shells, including the old "HM Ships damaged or sunk by enemy action"(ed. 1952) and the fourth volume of the US/MM series on WWII (if I remember well...).
Regards

Fabrizio

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