Leros

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
Brady
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Leros

Postby Brady » 14 Oct 2010 22:55

I have been reading lately about Leros and the campagine in the Agean in 43 and was woundering if their was list some place detailing the guns the Italians had on Leros, I ran across some picks in the Bundersarchive of pices that must be Italian but I cant ID them guns, they look to be in 90mm rang but eh gun is not a 90/53.

I would post the bundersarchive pick but I am not shure I can.

This is the pick:

Bild 101I-528-2351-37A

gttf
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Re: Leros

Postby gttf » 16 Oct 2010 13:27

hello Brady,
at sept., 8th, 1943, Italian Royal navy had on Leros 14 naval batteries, 12 naval/AAA batteries and 14 heavy machine gun detachments, with 11-152 mm guns (4-152/50, 7-152/40), 9-120/45 mm, 19-102/35 mm, 6-90/53 mm, 52-76 (8-76/40, 44-76/40) mm, plus 3-twin barrels 37/40 mm, 15-20 mm, 5-twin barrels 13,2 mm and 26-single barrels 13,2 mm.
AFAIK, British Army in Leros had only 4-88 mm guns and 12-40 mm Bofors guns.
So the contribution to the defense of Leros of Italian forces was substantial: this is not recognized by most english-speaking historians.

Regards

Fabrizio

PS Source USMMI "Avvenimenti in Egeo dopo l'armistizio", Rome, 1972

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 17 Oct 2010 01:01

Thank you for that, I did some more digging and found a better source for the 90/53 and aparently their were vershions with twin compensators atop the gun, and single compensators atop the gun, or so the referance photos for them that I have sean have listed, so the pick I referanced above would seam to be a 90/53.

Smith in his book War in the Agean, mentions the Italian garasion at some length but does not go into much detail with regard to thier TOE.

The Long Road to Leros, has some interesting naratives that detail the fighting their as well, but agin not much detail about the garasions TOE.

I dont supose you know what MAS unit was based their?

gttf
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Re: Leros

Postby gttf » 17 Oct 2010 17:19

At the time of Italian armistice on sept., 8th, 1943, the following coastal forces were assigned at Leros, although not all the mentioned craft were really in Leros:
- MS11,12, 15, 23 and 15 (motosiluranti - moto-torpedo boats, larger than MAS, similar to schnellboote) of the 1^ Squadriglia Motosiluranti
- MAS555, 540, 538, 559 of 3^ squadriglia MAS
- MAS520, 521, 522 and 523 of the 11^ squadriglia MAS
- MAS534, 542 and 545 of the 16^ Squadrilgia MAS
All these units were part of the 3^ Flottiglia MAS, with its HQ in Leros.

Many of these craft got lost, mainly for German air raids, like MS12, MS23, MAS534, MS15, MAS555, MAS559.

The contribution of Italian Forces has been generally underestimated by english-speaking writers: it has to be underlined that, fro example, from sept., 26th to Oct., 31st, 1943 there were 140 German air raids and the Italian AAA batteries reply with 150.000 shots (at least); other 40 air raids between 1st and 11th November, immediately before the landings and the battle (12-16 novembre 1943).

Regards

Fabrizio

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 17 Oct 2010 23:27

Ok, After checking with Peter H it would seam ok to post these, note the picture credit on the images, all shots from Leros:

This I beleave to be a 90/53:

Image

The folowing shots are also from Leros, I am not shure of the Gun type, nore if the last shot is of a Range Finder atop the bunker:

Image

Image

Dili
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Re: Leros

Postby Dili » 19 Oct 2010 11:43

"(8-76/40, 44-76/40)"

The minor number i believe it was 76/45 or i even saw 76/50 which was a rarity.

gttf
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Re: Leros

Postby gttf » 20 Oct 2010 20:57

You're right, Dili: there were 8-76/50 and 44-76/40.
Sorry for the mistyping

Fabrizio

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 29 Oct 2010 08:25

In "Churchills Folly by Anthony Rodgers" on page 151 the author refers to "Italian Marines" being deployed to PL 899. Whats interesting is the use of the term "Marines" presumably the author is refering the Naval Infentry?

Italy did not have "Marines" did they?

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Leros

Postby Alanmccoubrey » 29 Oct 2010 11:14

gttf wrote:hello Brady,
at sept., 8th, 1943, Italian Royal navy had on Leros 14 naval batteries, 12 naval/AAA batteries and 14 heavy machine gun detachments, with 11-152 mm guns (4-152/50, 7-152/40), 9-120/45 mm, 19-102/35 mm, 6-90/53 mm, 52-76 (8-76/40, 44-76/40) mm, plus 3-twin barrels 37/40 mm, 15-20 mm, 5-twin barrels 13,2 mm and 26-single barrels 13,2 mm.
AFAIK, British Army in Leros had only 4-88 mm guns and 12-40 mm Bofors guns.
So the contribution to the defense of Leros of Italian forces was substantial: this is not recognized by most english-speaking historians.

Regards

Fabrizio

PS Source USMMI "Avvenimenti in Egeo dopo l'armistizio", Rome, 1972


Do you mean 25pdrs and not 88mm ?
Alan

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 29 Oct 2010 18:42

Alanmccoubrey wrote:

Do you mean 25pdrs and not 88mm ?


Acording to the above mentioned referance, the four 18/25 pounders the British had, had found their way to Samos after being captured by the Germans in France in 1940. (p.110 Churchills Folly by Anthony Rodgers)

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Leros

Postby Alanmccoubrey » 29 Oct 2010 19:22

Brady, I've read "Folly", I was asking him why he was saying that the British had 88mm guns.
Alan

gttf
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Re: Leros

Postby gttf » 29 Oct 2010 20:08

Hello,
the only Naval Infantry Unit of the Regia Marina was Reggimento fanteria di marina "San Marco": noone of its units (including a paratroopers btl and a combat swimmers btl) was in Leros.
The personnel of the coastal and AAA batteries was made by sailors and the COs were from the Army; other sailors were in a coy in Gunià, another one in the naval base of San Giorgio and in some antiparachutists platoons.
Concerning the question on 25pdrs/88 mm British guns, AFAIK the 25pdrs guns were identified, according to the italian categorization as 88/27 where 88 is the caliber of the gun (in mm) and 27 is the barrel lenght (in number of calibers).
Regards

Fabrizio

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 29 Oct 2010 20:42

Thanks Again, so the author is likely refering to Naval personel impresed as infentry, rather than as "Marines".

Regarding the 25 pounders, I thought their was a varient of the 25 pounder mounted on 18 pounder carages, could these not be what their refering to?

(edit)-From Wikipedia:

Mark I
Known officially as the Ordnance, Quick Firing 25 pounder Mark I on Carriage 18-pr Mark IV, or Ordnance, Quick Firing 25 pounder Mark I on Carriage 18-pr Mark V and commonly called the 18/25-pr.

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Mischa
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Re: Leros

Postby Mischa » 31 Oct 2010 10:36

Italia coastal batteries on Leros
After Dr. Zvonimir Freivogel in Okręty Wojenne – Ekstra Nr 34 – Z dziejów floty niemieckiej od 1849 do dzisiaj, Tarnowskie Góry (Poland) 2010 – please do not move it, Dr. Freivogel is our friend and he hast nothing against.

Batterie Against who How many guns where since
„Ducci“ (as command stand – Gruppo Marina – South too) Vessels, ships 4 x 152 mm/L50
(former 4x120),
1 searchlight (120 cm) Monte Cazzuni 1926/27, modernized 1935/36
„Costanzo Ciano“ -„- 4 x 152 mm/L50 Monte Clidi 1939
„San Giorgio“ -„- 3 x 152 mm/L40 Mt. Scumbarda 1939
Farinata -„- 4 x 120 mm/L45 Mt. Marcello 1935/36
„Mario Lago“ (command stand Gruppo Marine East too) -„- 4 x 130 mm/L45. 1 searchlight (120 cm) Mt. Appetiki 1925-27
PL.388 (command stand Gruppo Marina South too ) torpedoboats 4 x 102 mm/L35,
1 searchlight 1938
PL.221 (command stand for all batteries of the South Area) Vessels and AA 4 x 76 mm/L40;
2 x 37 mm/L54 AA Mt. Patella 1938-39
PL.127 Vessels 4 x 90 mm/L53 Mt. Meraviglia 1940
PL.899 Vessels 4 x 76 mm/L50 Palma-Bucht 1939
PL.690 Przeciw torpedowcom 4 x 76 mm/L50 Agia Marina 1929
PL.262 (command stand Gruppo Marina South) AA 6 x 76 mm/L40 Mt. Scumbarda 1929
PL.508 Torpedoboats 2 x 76 mm/L50 Mt. Crumidi 1938
PL.250 -„- 3 x 76 mm/L40 Punta Cazzuni 1927
PL.432 -„- 2 x 76 mm/L40 La Madonna .
PL.306 Vessels and AA 6 x 102 mm/L35 Monte Vigla 1938
PL.211 4 x 102 mm/L35
& 4 x 76 mm/L40 Monte Rahi 1939
PL.227 4 x 102 mm/L35 Angistro 1938
PL.248 AA 4 x 76 mm/L40 Mt. Crumidi .
PL.749 -„- 4 x 76 mm/L40 Insel Arcangelo 1939
PL.763 (także stanowisko dowodzenia Art. Plot. Centrum) Vessels and AA 6 x 76 mm/L40 Gurna 1936
PL.281 6 x 76 mm/L40 Diapori 1936
PL.906 (także stanowisko dowodzenia Art. Plot. Północ) 4 x 76 mm/L40 Mt. Moplugurna 1934
PL.989 4 x 76 mm/L40 Timari 1934
PL.888 4 x 76 mm/L40 Blefuti-Bucht 1938
PL.113 AA 4 x 76 mm/L40 Mt. Zuncona 1936

Atention: while the island was preparated for the defence, the British brougt here some AA 40 mm – Bofors, to strengthen the anti-aircraft

Regards Mischa

Brady
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Re: Leros

Postby Brady » 31 Oct 2010 19:33

Again very nice detail, thank you.

The Italian comitment in terms of emplaced guns was considerable, and they did fire throught the battle, or until they were taken out or captured.

Its interesting given the work that was done on these emplacements and the range finder shown above and the searchlights, that their was aparently a very poor com's system set up for the controle. (acording to "Folly")

One thing Folly did show or refer to were some fixed , bunkers, or infentry fighting posations, but they seam to of been few and far between, but I am reading this between the lines so to speak.

Is their a referance for the construction of the gun emplacements and or any of the infentry fighting posations that the Italians built ?


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