Italian OOB

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Kent72903
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Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 06 Dec 2011 02:22

I apologise if this has been previously covered and I'm not having much luck with the search function.

I was trying to put a spread sheet together showing which regiments, Bn/s etc were assigned, detached, attached, separate etc to the various Italian armies and a time line.

I'm getting confused. Ok senile too so maybe there is a reason I think I'm confused.

Looking at Niehorster OOB site, he shows a MG battilion as CIII when assigned to the Frontier Guard, but then he also shows a 103 Static BG battalion as an army reserve in which the sector containing the Frontier units is assigned. Are these separate units or has the unit been duplicated because it was refered to in Roman Numerals in one source and arabic in another? There are numerous examples of what appear to be duplicates, but not every Frontier MG bn is duplicated and there are numbered mg Bns that don't have a roman numeral equivalent either.

I'm also questioning whether the artillery Bn and batteries that are shown as assigned to a specific Frontier Guard sector are also included in the units shown as part of the GAF Artillery available as an army asset.

Any help would be appreciated!

Also, does anybody have a list of the independent regiments and Bn that were formed?

I've got a pretty good read on the actual divisions, but there appear to have been at least five and maybe as many as ten or more independent infantry regiments and the cavalry regiments seemed to have maintained their independence until dismounted and assigned as infantry to the coastal divisions.

Guess I'll keep going with the questions.

Does anybody have information on the Militia or garrison units? The Coastal Divisions "seem" to have incorporated these and I keep running into little references on OOB listings for various campaigns where in the small print it might say 21 militia bns, but nothing more. Since the Backshirt Bn are listed some other type units must be being referred to, But what type or the source I have no idea.

arturolorioli
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 06 Dec 2011 08:26

Kent72903 wrote: Looking at Niehorster OOB site, he shows a MG battilion as CIII when assigned to the Frontier Guard, but then he also shows a 103 Static BG battalion as an army reserve in which the sector containing the Frontier units is assigned. Are these separate units or has the unit been duplicated because it was refered to in Roman Numerals in one source and arabic in another?
MG bns in the "100" sequence were Corps and Army assets, As such they were sometimes assigned to the local GaF Sectors (Guardia alla Frontiera . Frontier Guards). So they are problaby the same unit.

All italian battalion-level units had roman numerals. The numerals were alternate arabic/roman, as follows :
Arabic : company, regiment, division, army
Roman : platoon, battalion, brigade (and equivalent), corps
Kent72903 wrote: I'm also questioning whether the artillery Bn and batteries that are shown as assigned to a specific Frontier Guard sector are also included in the units shown as part of the GAF Artillery available as an army asset.
Hard to answer. The GaF mobilized several unit to serve with the "field army", mostly in North Africa 1940/41 and in Sicily 1943. If listed in the army asses, the GaF units were *probably* detached from their parent Sectors and, as such, no longer accounted in their total. But it's too generic a case to give a firm answer.
Kent72903 wrote: the cavalry regiments seemed to have maintained their independence until dismounted and assigned as infantry to the coastal divisions.
??? With the exception of the "Genova Cavalleria" and the ones converted to armoured units the cavalry Regiments - as such - were not dismounted. Many of them formed dismounted battalions (IIRC I posted a list about them some times ago).
Kent72903 wrote: Does anybody have information on the Militia or garrison units? The Coastal Divisions "seem" to have incorporated these and I keep running into little references on OOB listings for various campaigns where in the small print it might say 21 militia bns, but nothing more. Since the Backshirt Bn are listed some other type units must be being referred to, But what type or the source I have no idea.
They were the Milizia Mobile or Milizia Territoriale units. During WW1 they had been mobilized forming their own battalions and brigades. During WW2 they were mostly used as a force pool for replacements, until the activation of the Coastal Divisions that were largely formed by them. But we are talking about "paper" units, they did not exist in peacetime except on some folder in the Military Districts listing the citizens with military obligations. In case of mobilization they were formed at the nearest "regular" regimental depot from the appropriate number of recalled personnel. So you can find a number of Militia battalions as part of some Military District, but this doesn't means that they actually existed, neither that enough uniforms/weapons etc had been stockpiled for them, but it just means that enough manpower was registered in that Military DIstrict to activate that number of Militia battalions *if needed* (and if equipment was found for them ;-)
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Arturo Filippo Lorioli
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Kent72903
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 06 Dec 2011 21:21

The US Army WWII Field Manual on the Italian Army, lists numerous Named Brigades.

Were these in fact the Militia organizations?

arturolorioli
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 07 Dec 2011 09:38

Kent72903 wrote:The US Army WWII Field Manual on the Italian Army, lists numerous Named Brigades.
Were these in fact the Militia organizations?
AFAIK the Milizia Mobile and Milizia Territoriale were not organized in Brigades at all. The only "named" brigade I can remember now was the short lived Brigata Imperiali (a provisional unit formed in Tunisa), but if was formed by grouping "regular army" units, not Militia. For the rest, the Brigade level wasn't much used in WW2 Italy, except for the Colonial Brigades in Italian East Africa, an handfull of Coastal Brigades, and some "nominal" command like the Tank Brigade in the Armoured Divisions etc (that did exist only on paper, and for administrative duties only).

I do not have that Field Manual, so if you post a few of this brigades' names maybe I can provide a more accurate answer.
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Arturo Filippo Lorioli
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jwsleser
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by jwsleser » 08 Dec 2011 15:27

IIRC the Brigata Imperiali was actually the L brigata speciale. Because it was task organized in Tunisia, it took the name of the commander per normal Italian and German practice for gruppi.

The brigades listed in the US manual are the ’paper units’ Arturo referred to. These units potentially could have been mobilized, but in most cases were not. In reality they didn't have any real existence beyond mobilization rolls and lacked the organization of a pre-war UK territorial or American reserve unit. The latter units at least had a cadre structure and some equipment in storage.

The infantry divisions technically had a brigade structure (the two infantry regiments were a 'brigade') but this organization lacked any practical value beyond administrative. The division second-in-command (2IC) was 'on paper' the brigade commander. The raggruppamento filled the need for a brigade-sized unit in the Italian Army.

Pista!

Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

Kent72903
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 21 Dec 2011 00:34

arturolorioli wrote: I do not have that Field Manual, so if you post a few of this brigades' names maybe I can provide a more accurate answer.
Its a free download here as well as other sites:

http://www.ebook3000.com/Order-of-Battl ... 75484.html

Kent72903
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 21 Dec 2011 02:14

Here is a list of Brigades identified by the US Army in WWII. Not sure if these are valid identifiers or not.

Organization of Italian Independent Brigades
1939-1943
Udine Brigade:
95th Infantry Regiment
96th Infantry Regiment
102nd Signal Company
20th CCNN Battalion
Genova Brigade:
97th Infantry Regiment
98th Infantry Regiment
14th CCNN Legion
14th CCNN Battalion
15th CCNN Battalion
Treviso Brigade
99th Infantry Regiment
100th Infantry Regiment
3rd Mortar Brigade
Padova Brigade:
117th Infantry Regiment
118th Infantry Regiment
105th Artillery Regiment
18th Anti-tank Company
Chieti Brigade:
123rd Infantry Regiment
124th Infantry Regiment
3rd A Pioneer Company
4th A Pioneer Company
Lazio Brigade:
131st Infantry Regiment
132nd Infantry Regiment
131st Tank Regiment (detached)
132nd Tank Regiment
131st Artillery Regiment
132nd Artillery Regiment
11th Anti-tank Battalion
132nd Engineer Battalion
131st Signal Company
132nd Pioneer Company
Benevento Brigade:
133rd Infantry Regiment
134th Infantry Regiment
133rd Tank Regiment
133rd Artillery Regiment
2C Artillery Regiment
Campania Brigade:
135th Infantry Regiment
136th Infantry Regiment
132nd Artillery Regiment
136th Artillery Regiment
131st Anti-tank Battalion
5th Anti-tank Battalion
2C Signal Company
24th CCNN Legion
2
Taranto Brigade:
143rd Infantry Regiment
144th Infantry Regiment
44th anti-tank Company
44th CCNN Battalion
Cantania Brigade:
145th Infantry Regiment
146th Infantry Regiment
Caltanissetta Brigade:
147th Infantry Regiment
148th Infantry Regiment
Trapani Brigade
149th Infantry Regiment
150th Infantry Regiment
Milano Brigade;
159th Infantry Regiment
160th Infantry Regiment
159th Artillery Regiment
159th Engineer Battalion
51st Signal Company
159th Pioneer Company
159th Machine gun Battalion
Ivrea Brigade:
161st Infantry Regiment
162nd Infantry Regiment
1A CCNN Battalion
Lucca Brigade:
163rd Infantry Regiment
164th Infantry Regiment
48th CCNN Legion
48th CCNN Battalion
Sesia Brigade:
201st Infantry Regiment
202nd Infantry Regiment
60th CCNN Legion
Tanaro Brigade:
203rd nfantry Regiment
204th Infantry Regiment
Lambro Brigade:
205th Infantry Regiment
206th Infantry Regiment
Bisagno Brigade:
209th Infantry Regiment
210th Infantry Regiment
Pescara Brigaade:
211th Infantry Regiment
212th Infantry Regiment
Arno Brigade:
213th Infantry Regiment
214th Infantry Regiment
Tevere Brigade:
215th Infantry Regiment
216th Infantry Regiment
2nd A Tank Brigade
3
Volturno Brigade:
217th Infantry Regiment
218th Infantry Regiment
Sele Brigade:
219th Infantry Regiment
220th Infantry Regiment
Jonio Brigade:
221st Infantry Regiment
222nd Infantry Regiment
Etna Brigade:
223rd Infantry Regiment
224th Infantry Regiment
Campobasso Brigade:
229th Infantry Regiment
230th Infantry Regiment
Laro Brigade:
233rd Infantry Regiment
234th Infantry Regiment
Grosseto Brigade:
237th Infantry Regiment
238th Infantry Regiment
Pesaro Brigade:
239th Infantry Regiment
240th Infantry Regiment
Teramo Brigade:
241st Infantry Regiment
242nd Infantry Regiment
41st Antni-Tank Company
Cosenza Brigade:
243rd Infantry Regiment
244th Infantry Regiment
Siracusa Brigade:
245th Infantry Regiment
246th Infantry Regiment
Girgenti Brigade:
247th Infantry Regiment
248th Infantry Regiment
Pallanza Brigade:
249th Infantry Regiment
250th Infantry Regiment
50th Pioneer Company
Massa Carrara Brigade:
251st Infantry Regiment
252nd Infantry Regiment
51st Anti-tank Company
152nd Signal Company
Porto Maurizio Brigade:
253rd Infantry Regiment
254th Infantry Regiment
50th Anti-tank Company
154th Signal Company
Tortona Brigade:
247th Infantry Regiment
248th Infantry Regiment
157th Signal Company
4
158th Signal Company
Elba Brigade:
261st Infantry Regiment
262nd Infantry Regiment
Gaeta Brigade;
263rd Infantry Regiment
264th Infantry Regiment
Lecce Brigade:
265th Infantry Regiment
266th Infantry Regiment
51st Infantry Regiment
Caserta Brigade:
267th Infantry Regiment
268th Infantry Regiment
Aquilla Brigade
269th Infantry Regiment
270th Infantry Regiment
Potenza Brigade:
271st Infantry Regiment
272nd Infantry Regiment
273rd Infantry Regiment
1C Anti-Tank Copmany
Belluno Brigade:
274th Infantry Regiment
275th Infantry Regiment
276th Infantry Regiment
Vicenza Brigade:
279th Infantry Regiment
Foggia Brigade;
280th Infantry Regiment
281st Infantry Regiment
282nd Infantry Regiment
Order of Battle of the Italian Army, Summer 1942, Military Intelligence Service, Washington DC.
Copyright GFN 1992

Kent72903
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 21 Dec 2011 02:52

Better links to the Army's WWII TM E on the Italian Army. First one is from 1942 and the second is from 1943

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... l8/id/2384

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... l8/id/2445

arturolorioli
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 21 Dec 2011 08:22

Kent72903 wrote:Here is a list of Brigades identified by the US Army in WWII. Not sure if these are valid identifiers or not.
Sadly not. Just a few examples from the first units named in the list :

Udine Brigade. Formed 1915 from personnel recalled from Libya, disbanded 1920, The 95th Inf.Rgt. was shortly re-activated in 1935-36. Not mobilized during WW2. The 20th CCNN Battalion was part of the 23rd Assault Legion of the "Forlì" Infantry Division.
Genova Brigade, Formed 1915 from personnel recalled from Libya, disbanded 1918, The 97th Inf.Rgt. was shortly re-activated in 1935-36. Not mobilized during WW2. The CCNN Battalions listed were part of the 15th Assault Legion of the "Lupi di Toscana" Infantry Division (later Siena, Pinerolo, Cagliari etc).
Treviso Brigade. Formed 1915, disbanded 1918. Reactivated 1935-36. During WW2 it was not an independent units, but was the Infantry component of the "Marmarica" Inf.Div. in North Africa.
Etc etc

It is roughly a list of WW1 wartime mobilization brigades, with some rather puzzling attachments. As I said, the planning to mobilize the on-paper Territorial Militia units was certainly there, but no such units were mobilized as Brigades (just several Mobile or Territorial Militia Regiments were activated and reorganized as Coastal Defence Regiments).

Alas, I'm afraid that the list in the present form is close to worthless for an italian WW2 OOB. Anyway, there are already two good listings on italian wikipedia. Go to :
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisioni_ ... a_mondiale for a list of the main elements of the divisions.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elenco_dei ... o_Italiano for a list of the Infantry Regiments.
Last edited by arturolorioli on 21 Dec 2011 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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jwsleser
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by jwsleser » 21 Dec 2011 14:51

Arturo

Excellent links. Some individuals have done some nice work on those entries.

From just a quick glance, it appears the btg Alpini sciatori Monte Rossa is missing from the regimental list as is the 20° raggruppomento Alpini sciatori. Look for these units based on my interests.

Pista!

Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

arturolorioli
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 21 Dec 2011 15:04

jwsleser wrote:Arturo
Excellent links. Some individuals have done some nice work on those entries.
:milwink:
jwsleser wrote: From just a quick glance, it appears the btg Alpini sciatori Monte Rossa is missing from the regimental list as is the 20° raggruppomento Alpini sciatori. Look for these units based on my interests..
About the Monte Rosa it is not included because it was a battalion, while one list is about Divisions and the other about Regiments. About the 20° Raggruppamento Sciatori, there is a discussion currently underway about the opportunity to include also regimental-level (but not properly "regimental") units in the list. I think that it could be an interesting addition, but the opinions are split. Will let you know.
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by jwsleser » 21 Dec 2011 22:12

Arturo

I sensed you had a hand in these Wiki pages.

I now see that the several battaglioni alpini listed eventually did become regiments sometime after the war.

I hope that raggruppamenti will be added. It might be too difficult to capture them all, but those that are known should definitely be added. This should be a case of it wasn’t known at the time, not one of we decided not to include it.

Pista!

Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 22 Dec 2011 09:26

jwsleser wrote: I now see that the several battaglioni alpini listed eventually did become regiments sometime after the war.
I've checked, and the "Monte Cervino" is already there in all its historical versions (look at the end of the Alpini section).

Pista!
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by arturolorioli » 22 Dec 2011 14:19

Kent, I have found in the list a unit to be included in the WW2 OOB, namely the 265th Infantry Regiment. It was formed in 1941 in Crete from the elements of the "Regina" Infantry Division that landed there in support of the "Merkur" operation. The regiment was later paired with the 351st "Modena" Inf.Rgt. to form the 51st Special Brigade (i.e. the italian component of the Crete garrison).
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Kent72903
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Re: Italian OOB

Post by Kent72903 » 26 Dec 2011 03:11

Thanks for the follow up to one and all.

Chasing down links in italian and trying to get a handle of the details.

For example:

The CVIII Machinegun Battalion is listed is being in GAF sector Ib, as well as GAF sector XVI, and as an army asset as 116 Static.

I think its the same battalion in all three cases.

Anybody have a link to better information? (I.E. Not just a repeat from another site)

As for the GAF artillery.

It is unclear if the batteries listed as belonging to a GAF artillery regiment include those shown as directly assigned to a specific sector or are in addition to those dirrectly assigned. If I total up the number of batteries by type assigned to the sectors and compare it with the numbers shown as assigned to the GAF regimentthere is little correlation. There may be less or more of specific types or in some cases new types.

Again, anybody have a link to original information.

Postal addresses are some times a good way to find units as they at least had to have a unit address to direct the mail too.

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