Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 22 Mar 2012 17:27

That's a great link, many thanks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3465
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by David W » 23 Mar 2012 08:45

If it didn't include those lost in transit, it would be most useful indeed!

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 23 Mar 2012 13:03

The link? I was thinking more of the battalion histories linked on there. Some really good info.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3465
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by David W » 24 Mar 2012 01:06

I was refering to the list.

nmao
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 16:42
Location: Portugal

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by nmao » 05 Mar 2013 22:30

Hello.
Is there any new info?
thx

-nuno

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2013 13:08

Not new info, but the table from Lupo in a more readable format:

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... a-in-1942/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3465
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by David W » 06 Mar 2013 13:36

Thank you.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 11 Aug 2013 14:13

nmao wrote:Not sure if it helps...or confuses more... but during Crusader all the medium tanks were M13/40, and further replacements/reinforecements were M13 & M14, progressively all M14 (i believe there was an exception, maybe IV bn).

from this thread
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=72036

i have some more info:
(IT=italian tanks, IAC=Italian armored cars, GT = German tanks, GAC = German armored cars)(harbors not specified)

January 5, 1942: 52 IT, 56 GT, 14 GAC
January 24: 46 IT, 51 GT
February 7: 4 GT
February 18: 4 IT, 5 GT
February 23: 32 IT, 20 IAC, 80 GT, 4 GAC
March 9: 33 IT, 23 GT
March 18: 36 IT
April 4: 32 IT, 40 IAC, 19 GT
April 10: 5 IT, 14 GT
April 13: 6 IT, 5 GAC
April 15: 18 IT, 23 IAC, 8 GT, 4 GAC
April 24: 29 IT, 2 GT, 5 GAC
April 27: 16 IT, 4 GT
May 2: 9 IT, 18 GT
May 8: 2 GT, 2 GAC
May 12: 39 IT, 4 GT, 3 GAC
May 13: 4 GT
May 14: 16 IT, 1 GAC
May 18: 5 IT, 14 GT
May 22: 2 IT
May 25: 18 GT
May 30: 60 italian tanks of which 58 L6, 8 GAC
June 2: 3 IT
June 12: 27 italian tanks. all L6, 1 GAC
June 14: 5 GT

italian tanks in two cases specify "L6" models, I suppose others were M or semoventi.
italians had only one kind of armored cars in production (AB41).

reported as document of italian army historical bureau archives: Arch. USE IT 1209 published "as is" on Lucio Ceva, Le Forze Armate, 1981
and:
This information is not mine, it was given to me by Arturo Lorioli and the information is taken (i think) from the Italian Official History; i really don´t know how accurate it is. Some of the dates at least, seem suspect.

----
Shipping list of all the tanks the italians sent to north Africa

Only of the Medium Tanks.
Notes : the number of tanks is the *total* number of tanks allocated to each bn, including replacements recieved during the campaign and including also the tanks lost in transit.

1st Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
2nd Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
3rd Bn/4th Rgt (37 x M13/40 - November 7th 1940)
4th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (59 x M13/40 and M14/41 - formed in Africa on August 25th 1941(???)(1942))
5th Bn/32nd Rgt (37 x M13/40 - January 11th 1941)
6th Bn/33rd Rgt - later 32nd Rgt (47 x M13/40 - January 1941)
7th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (50 x M13/40 - March 11th 1942)
8th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (67 x M13/40 - June 22nd 1941)
9th Bn/3rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (90 x M13/40 - October 1941)
10th Bn/133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (52 x M13/40 and 38 x M14/41 - January 22nd 1942)
11th Bn/4th Rgt - later 133rd Rgt then 101st Motor Infantry Div."Trieste"
(26 x M13/40 and 66 x M14/41 - formed in Africa on April 30th 11th 1941(???) (1942)from the remnants of the 8th Bn)
12th Bn/133rd Rgt - (lost all its 52 x M14/42 in transit - January 23rd
1942. Rebuilt in Africa with 52 x M14/41 on May 24th 1941(???) (1942))
13th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (75 x M14/41 - ???
August 1942???)
14th Bn/31st Rgt (60 x M14/41 - August 31st 1942)
15th Bn/1st Rgt - later 31st Rgt (40 x M14/41 and some Sem. M41 75L18 -
December 15th 1942)
16th Bn/32nd Rgt (one company only, with some Semoventi too - date???)
17th Bn/32nd Rgt (45 x M14/41 and 1 x Semovente - Late 1942)
21st Bn/4th Rgt (36 x M13/40 - formed in Africa with crews from the 21st Light Tanks Bn on January 1941)
51st Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (80 x M14/41 - formed in Africa from
crews of the 2nd and 4th Bn - August 25th 1941(???) (1942))
52nd Bn/no Regimental affiliation (9 x M tanks - formed in Africa from
miscellaneous armoured elements - October 22nd 1941)
and thats i believe all i have...no definite answers i'm afraid...
someone with free time and ability to read italian can try to explore this site:
http://www.assocarri.it/griglia_Unita.htm

regards,

-Nuno Oliveira
I have spent some time working on this list. Have a look:

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... 0-to-1942/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3465
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by David W » 11 Aug 2013 20:06

Is there a list that shows; a) The number that actually arrived.
b) the reinforcement/replacement tanks that were sent in addition, and that actually arrived.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 11 Aug 2013 21:32

I don't actually think that that many tanks were lost in transit. Carlo del Greco and Fabio Filzi on 13 December 41 are certainly the largest single loss I have come across, with 52 Italian M and two companies of German tanks (should 45 tanks, I think, 34 Panzer III and 11 Panzer II), although I haven't looked much beyond May 42. But HM/Sub Upright did a great job there, taking out 97 Axis Medium tanks with four torpedoes launched in a single attack.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

nmao
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 16:42
Location: Portugal

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by nmao » 16 Aug 2013 01:50

Hello.
III (3rd) battalion was equipped with M13-40 not the M11-39.
The tank state is "number of tanks allocated to each bn, including replacements received during the campaign and including also the tanks lost in transit", so not all available at once.
The regimental affiliation are a complete nightmare, and most of the time operationally meaningless.
The (medium) tank component of RECAM was LII (52nd) bn (still forming) with 9? x M13-40.

Still hoping someone will make sense of all this incomplete (and sometimes incoherent info) :)

regards,
-nuno

tackleberry6
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: 10 Feb 2013 18:21

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by tackleberry6 » 06 Sep 2013 23:40

I've read this topic with much interest. Maybe I can add something that will help find some of the missing 26 Italian tanks.
From: 'Hitlers Great Panzer Heist' by Anthony Tucker Jones, Stackpole Books 2006
Pgs.49-50
(Re derelict German airfield at Gambut in North Africa December 1941)

"we turned aside along a track leading to the coast where, we had been told, a big German tank-repair workshop had been captured intact......There were 38 tanks in all, hulking great Mark IV's, smaller Cruisers, even one or two new British A15's with German black and white crosses superimposed on their regimental colours.......Cases of tank precision instruments worth thousands of pounds lay about. One was full of periscopes. Several huge boxes contained new 50mm guns which apparently could be fitted to damaged tanks in this place. There were sheets of armour, new tracks and tyres, a mass of woodwork and steel parts. It seemed that they could have built a tank here in the desert by the sea. The richest prize was about 30 tanks of all kinds which the Germans had lying about. These tanks had been brought in for repair, and when the retreat was ordered that they had been set on fire."

Unfortunately, he doesn't mention all the tank types. Still, it might be a good clue.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 07 Sep 2013 07:01

Hi

Thanks for this! Unfortunately these were the tanks destroyed by the South African engineers after the German retreat. They were all German.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4265
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Tank state Ariete - 24 Dec 1941

Post by Urmel » 27 Nov 2013 15:07

jwsleser wrote:Urmel

I have not done any more checking. Just a quick comment from your last post.

The 187 light tanks lost were the last of the CV 33/35 L3 tanks. I don't believe any L6/40s had arrived (or only a small number. IIRC correctly the RECAM might have had some in a test unit). From memory, so I could be wrong.

Jeff
Hi Jeff, reading the diario storico of the C.A.M. just now, I note that in early December 41 RECAM had 1 L6/40 left, which would fit with your memory.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Return to “Italy under Fascism 1922-1945”