101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
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Mechili
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#121

Post by Mechili » 02 Feb 2015, 23:24

valentine III wrote:Also it was more "glamorous" for allied units to be defeated,sunk, destroyed by geman weapons and troops than by the italians
Brendan Bracken recruited Cecil Scott Forester and other highly gifted writers putting them to work to concoct stylistically precious but historically - uhm - inaccurate accounts of all naval actions involving British and Italian ships and aircraft. (George Orwell was on Bracken's staff, too).

Post-war London Gazette accounts, sold back then and held for decades as the official truth, are now widely discounted as a bunch of inconsistencies, omissions and out and out lies.

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Urmel
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#122

Post by Urmel » 03 Feb 2015, 08:13

Mechili wrote: Post-war London Gazette accounts, sold back then and held for decades as the official truth, are now widely discounted as a bunch of inconsistencies, omissions and out and out lies.
I think that is a very unfair view that probably demonstrates a misunderstanding of what the despatches were there for. The key thing is that they were never meant to be the universal truth. They were meant to be a Commander's account of his actions. Nothing else. For a balanced view, in the early 1950s an internal written history was produced (this is a CAB document), and the Admiralty produced staff histories of specific events and campaigns, and then the official histories which was published.

So when assessing them, you have to remember that the Gazette despatches were written during the war, very close to the events, and did not benefit from a systematic study of enemy documents or other enemy information gleaned after the war. They were not meant to be an even-handed analysis of the events.

I have looked at the files that went into the production of Auchinleck's despatch on the CRUSADER period. This was a serious piece of work, with a lot of departments in Cairo contributing information, in some cases specially put together for the purpose. It was produced after Auchinleck was sacked from his post of CiC Middle East in the second half of 1942.

Please consider this before judging the quality. Anyone who held the despatches as truth did not understand what they were talking about. They were one piece of information, and are valuable in this right, but they are not the only one.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


OHara
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#123

Post by OHara » 04 Feb 2015, 08:33

I wouldn't discount the London Gazette accounts. They are reprints of the official reports filed at the time of the event (or shortly thereafter), as Urmel says, and as such they're valuable sources. However, some accounts have been lightly edited. Captain Hardy's report after the Battle of Pantelleria is one example.

Vince

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#124

Post by carlodinechi » 05 Feb 2015, 01:52

7th Bersaglieri capture Mersa Matruh. WW2 footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GFfPCP9FRs

"The Mersa Matruh positions came under heavy artillery fire from the Brescia and Trento Divisions, while the 90th Light and the Littorio Divisions tried to complete the encirclement from the south ... Late in the day on 27 June, Gott, worried that his New Zealand 2nd Division was about to be cut off, ordered the withdrawal of XIII Corps. Because of a breakdown in British communications, X Corps did not learn until 0430 hours on 28 June that XIII Corps was in full retreat, and their southern flank was open. Later that day, the 90th Light Division and the Littorio Division completed the encirclement of Mersa Matruh ... During the night of 28 June, groups of the Indian 10th Division tried a breakout of the Mersa Matruh position at the head of Wadi Ngamish, but they were driven back by the Littorio Armoured Division ... On the morning of 29 June, the garrison of Mersa Matruh was overwhelmed. At 0930 hours, the Italian 7th Bersaglieri Regiment entered the conquered stronghold, taking 6,000 Allied prisoners. "

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#125

Post by carlodinechi » 06 Feb 2015, 15:08

San Marco Rgt in action. WW2 footage. Italian victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKeRaUxcidA

"About 300 British were killed. The Royal Marines suffered 81 killed, and Royal Navy destroyers Sikh and Zulu and cruiser Coventry, report the loss of another 217 of their men. Axis losses were 15 Italians and 1 German killed and 43 Italians and 7 Germans wounded. About 576 British survivors were captured.
The British destroyer Sikh, according to the surivors, had been hit by Italian 155 mm (6 inch) shore batteries while taking on troops. Zulu had gone to rescue the ship and crew but was unable to pull Sikh clear. Sikh finally sank. One-hundred-and-fifteen of her crew were reported killed and the survivors were taken prisoner. On the afternoon of 14 September while returning to Alexandria Coventry was badly damaged by German divebombers from Crete leading to her being scuttled by Zulu. Sixty-three of her crew had been lost in the raid. Zulu was herself hit by Italian fighter-bombers a little later that day and needed assistance. While under tow and 100 miles from Alexandria Zulu sank. Thirty-nine of her crew had perished."

Mechili
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#126

Post by Mechili » 13 Feb 2015, 23:09

Urmel wrote:
Mechili wrote: Post-war London Gazette accounts, sold back then and held for decades as the official truth, are now widely discounted as a bunch of inconsistencies, omissions and out and out lies.
I think that is a very unfair view that probably demonstrates a misunderstanding of what the despatches were there for. The key thing is that they were never meant to be the universal truth. They were meant to be a Commander's account of his actions. Nothing else. For a balanced view, in the early 1950s an internal written history was produced (this is a CAB document), and the Admiralty produced staff histories of specific events and campaigns, and then the official histories which was published.

So when assessing them, you have to remember that the Gazette despatches were written during the war, very close to the events, and did not benefit from a systematic study of enemy documents or other enemy information gleaned after the war. They were not meant to be an even-handed analysis of the events.

I have looked at the files that went into the production of Auchinleck's despatch on the CRUSADER period. This was a serious piece of work, with a lot of departments in Cairo contributing information, in some cases specially put together for the purpose. It was produced after Auchinleck was sacked from his post of CiC Middle East in the second half of 1942.

Please consider this before judging the quality. Anyone who held the despatches as truth did not understand what they were talking about. They were one piece of information, and are valuable in this right, but they are not the only one.
Agreed, so the problem lies not with the Gazette but with those (UK) historians who post-war based their accounts of the Mediterranean war on Gazette despatches - taking them as undisputable truth and confident their readers would also have done likewise. I'm fine with it, and stand corrected. :)

Mechili
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#127

Post by Mechili » 13 Feb 2015, 23:20

OHara wrote:I wouldn't discount the London Gazette accounts. They are reprints of the official reports filed at the time of the event (or shortly thereafter), as Urmel says, and as such they're valuable sources. However, some accounts have been lightly edited. Captain Hardy's report after the Battle of Pantelleria is one example.

Vince
The harsh judgment was not my own work, but I borrowed it from Sam Moses, who in World War II, Jan/Feb 2008, wrote about Captain Hardy's report: "a mass of contradictions, omission and impossibility", "a vague and rambling report" (which by the way sounds a little heavier than just a slight editing :) )

Also about the slight editing, it is interesting to note that in the *original* battle reports by Royal Navy officers praise for Italian bravery ("outstanding bravery" referred to torpedo attacks, etc.) may appear that is interestingly brushed off in post-war official rearrangements. Ditto with Italian or "unknown attacker" actions magically transformed into German. Slight surely is, but they knew what to brush off, didn't they. :)

OHara
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#128

Post by OHara » 14 Feb 2015, 02:10

Mechili,

I think we're talking about two different things here. The report of Captain Hardy, for example, was not filed for the benefit of the London Gazette or future historians, it was filed to his superior officers on 21 June 1942 so they could assess his actions and judge his performance. Naturally, he had an interest in putting the best light possible on how he preformed his duties, and given on what happened, that was pretty hard to do. It's my opinion that Acting Captain Hardy, who was in his first independent command, was in over his head and his report reflects that. I think some of that accounts for what Sam Moses, a journalist, found difficult with Hardy's report. And that just reflects on Hardy, not on all Official Reports reprinted in the London Gazette. (Some officers write better than others). My bringing up the example of Hardy was only to say that some of the London Gazette reports are not complete reprints of the reports filed at the time. In this instance, one paragraph was deleted from the London Gazette reprint. It had to do with responsibility for the debacle that befell the convoy when it missed the swept channel into Malta and suffered several mined vessels as a result. A very sensitive matter. Moral of the story if you want the complete report, don't assume the London Gazette reprint is complete. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't: verify it against the originals. That's all.

PS. I've read my fair share of wartime British action reports and while credit is given where credit is due in some cases, my impression is that its more common to encounter contempt or disrespect for the Italian foe.

Vince

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#129

Post by carlodinechi » 17 Feb 2015, 07:36

ARIETE surrounds & captures Benghazi & Mechili. WW2 newsreel (Italian victory)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph7S6w5NBkQ

"Rommel decided to make a bid for all of Cyrenaica in a single stroke, although the only support for his Germans was two weak Italian divisions. He ordered a double envelopment, sending the 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion straight along the Via Balbia toward Benghazi, while directing the 5th Panzer Regiment and the Italian Ariete Armored Division (sixty tanks) across the chord of the Cyrenaican bulge to El Mechili, just south of the "Green Mountain" of Jebel el Akdar. If the panzers continued northward, they could block the British retreat along the coast. The effect was instantaneous; the British hurriedly evacuated Benghazi and fell back in confusion."

"The victory must have been especially sweet for the men of the Ariete Division, partly as recompense for past humiliations at British hands, and partly because it was an all-Italian triumph."

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Urmel
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#130

Post by Urmel » 17 Feb 2015, 07:57

How is it an 'all-Italian triumph' when the Germans participated in it?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#131

Post by carlodinechi » 17 Feb 2015, 09:01

Yes it was a joint effort but it was the Bersaglieri that cut off the British garrison of Mechili on the night of 7/8 April forcing the surrender of 3,000 British and Commonwealth troops. Below is another Italian newsreel of the episode showing a very large column of Allied POWs being escorted by Italian troops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB61d2AMx9I

The abandoned British armoured cars and tanks that appear in the footage, no doubt belong to the 2nd Armoured Brigade that failed to offer a proper resistance because all the tanks were worn out because of Operation Compass, so I guess Marshal Graziani's troops exacted some revenge on the British. Also half of Rommel's armoured vanguard at the time were 60 tanks from the Ariete Division and motorcycle troops from the Sabratha Division guided the German 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion into Benghazi. I'll see if I can find the relevant footage about the pathfinders from the Sabratha.

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Tim Smith
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#132

Post by Tim Smith » 02 Mar 2015, 00:53

durb wrote:Italy´s biggest victory in WW2 would have been not to be involved in it.
Agreed.

Mussolini could even have opted for a separate Italian war of his own to feed his pride and 'keep up with Hitler'. Instead of declaring war on Britain and France in June 1940, he could have invaded Yugoslavia (without German assistance). Fighting the Yugoslavs would have been a much more popular war with the Italian people than fighting Britain. Also a Yugoslav campaign would have been one the Italian army and air force would have been much better equipped and trained for than the desert war in North Africa.

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#133

Post by carlodinechi » 10 Mar 2015, 02:31

Italy's "biggest victory" in the war, if we're going to discard it's military achievements, was it's military presence in the Ukraine, saving in it's areas of responsibility the lives of several 100,000 Ukrainian civilians if not millions, from certain death. The Germans considered the Ukrainian people Untermenschen, but the Italian troops cared for them, shared their food with the population, provided medical care and shielded them from German excesses just like they did with the civilian population in Croatia.

"Total civilian losses during the War and German occupation in Ukraine are estimated at 7 million." http://www.ukrainiangenocide.org/dhistory.html

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#134

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Mar 2015, 13:24

Hi Carlodinechi,

I know you want to put a positive spin on Italian performances, but the proposition that "saving in it's areas of responsibility the lives of several 100,000 Ukrainian civilians if not millions, from certain death" represents "Italy's biggest victory in the war" is an overstatement verging on the ridiculous.

The Italian 8th Army was in Ukraine in order to perpetuate Axis (essentially German) rule, not to alleviate it. Italy didn't even have the ecxcuse of self interest that it had in Croatia. It was part of Ukraine's problem, not part of its solution!

Italian rule in Croatia was undoubtedly milder than that of the Germans, though arguably at least partly through weakness rather than benevolence. Furthermore, Italy did not have a presence in Croatia in order to prevent a German presence. Nor was it wanted by the Croats. Again, the Italian presence was part of Croatia's problem, not its solution.

The claim that German occupation was worse is not much of a justification for the Italians anywhere.

carlodinechi
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Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting

#135

Post by carlodinechi » 11 Mar 2015, 14:39

Proof the Italian divisions, in their respective areas, were a blessing to the Ukrainian civilian population on the brink of starvation:

"Even in critical moments, Italian soldiers requested very little from the population. General Messe preferred to reduce rations of his own troops rather than exploit local villagers. The Italians asked the Russians to provide shelter for their soldiers, yet even in such circumstances military officials attempted to find suitable lodging in public buildings, schools, or offices rather than in private homes. It was expressly forbidden to requisition homes forcefully from the locals in the German manner. During the winter of 1941-42, the Russian urban population was on the edge of outright starvation. The Germans had requisitioned all local grain, and civilians traveled throughout the countryside searching for peasants who could give them a bit of precious flour. In return, the peasants wanted "things", not money, in exchange for their flour. "One could observe," Messe writes, "a procession of poor people who came from cities with sleds, laden with the most varied objects and then returning from this pilgrimage with a small amount of flour after walking kilometers and kilometers from house to house in the countryside." Hundreds tramped through the countryside in this manner. Italian military truck drivers picked up many of these exhausted civilians on the roads to "alleviate their fatigue," despite German orders forbidding transportation of civilians in military vehicles. The following summer, even the Ukrainian peasants remained without flour ... hungry civilians tramped toward the Don regions where Russian troops had not yet destroyed all of the harvest during their withdrawal, and the Germans had not yet arrived to deplete supplies of grain with their system of requisitions. Italian soldiers picked up many civilians during this period, providing much needed transportation for those moving toward the Don on foot. The Germans were concerned about security to the rear of their lines as masses of civilians entered areas close to the front near the Don River. They ordered civilians without prescribed permits to be interned in prison camps. General Messe writes, "If those orders had been applied, prison camps would have been rapidly populated by the destitute, forced far from their hoomes by hunger." The Italians organized transportation for civilians who lacked documents, using empty trucks returning from the front to their supply bases: "Once more, good sense, pity, and understanding of human needs took precedence over German imperious categorical orders, giving the population more tangible proof of the kindness of the Italians." The Italian military had nothing to do with roundups of civilian workers sent to Germany for forced labor. The Italian Office of Civilian Affairs focused primarily upon assistance to the population. During the winter months, soldiers of the CSIR had more opportunity for contact with the local population. The troops had a period of quiet while in the zone of Stalino in the Donetz Basin, where their main battle was against the frigid weather. Soldiers frequently sought refuge in Russian homes where stoves offered welcome warmth. Women villagers often did the laundry for soldiers in exchange for part of their bread and rations. As villagers came to know the soldiers, they requested medical help for their children. Italian medical officers offered their assistance and even offered medicine. Numerous soldiers even gave blood for necessary transfusions. In Rikovo, officers of the Torino Division established free outpatient clinics, a rest house for the elderly, and even a clinic for pregnant women run by Italians with Russian personnel paid by the Italians. General Messe noted all activities were the result of "spontaneous initiatives by our commanders." ... Italian military justice was carried out "with severity" in cases when soldiers were found guilty of activities against the population. In most cases, folks who suffered any form of damages inflicted by an Italian soldier received support and compensation. Even minor acts were punished and not overlooked, such as stealing a chicken or goose from a peasant family. General Messe was resolute, believing the Russian population should not suffer at the hands of Italian troops." (Sacrifice on the Steppe: The Italian Alpine Corps in the Stalingrad Campaign, 1942-1943, Hope Hamilton, pp. 14-15, Casemate, 2011)

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