Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

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mfy4444
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Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#1

Post by mfy4444 » 21 Sep 2016, 15:38

Hi all. Back with another question. On April 16, 1941, Rommel ordered an attack on Point 187 in the Tobruk perimeter, in the Ras el Medawar sector, by 18 tanks from Ariete Division (6 M.13s, 12 L.3s) plus an infantry battalion from Trento Division's 62nd Infantry Regiment. The tanks broke through the Australian perimeter, but the infantry was pinned down at the wire by artillery, and then apparently most of the battalion was captured in an Australian counterattack. Ian Walker, in "Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts," gives a figure of 26 officers and 777 men lost, so a total of 803, that must have pretty much the entire battalion. The next morning, Rommel ordered another attack at the same place, using ten tanks (2 M.13s and 8 L.3s) plus more infantry. My question: if the Trento battalion was essentially wiped out the previous day, who were the infantry in the April 17 attack? Were they Italian or German? And, if Italian, from which unit? Rommel was critical of Italian tactics both days, and the way he speaks of the attack in the Rommel Papers makes me think the infantry on April 17 was Italian, but officers from the German 5th Light Division were also present. Any clues as to who the attacking infantry were on April 17?

Thanks for any help

Mike Yaklich

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#2

Post by Urmel » 21 Sep 2016, 22:04

They were a mix.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2016/05/03/d- ... april-1941

If you go back through the days you can see which Trento battalions had arrived in front of Tobruk by this day, which should restrict the possibilities quite considerably.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#3

Post by mfy4444 » 22 Sep 2016, 16:56

Thanks again, that certainly narrows it down. I'm guessing that those two German motorcycle companies probably participated. Also, your suggestion to follow the war diary entries back was a good one, I was under the impression that only one battalion of Trento's 62nd Infantry Regiment was forward at Tobruk at this time, but apparently the entire regiment minus one battalion arrived in the sector April 14. So probably more Trento infantry was in this attack, too.

I actually tried looking at your site before asking the question, but I must either have used an old link that I bookmarked, or maybe just didn't scroll down far enough, I thought (incorrectly) that the war diary entries had only gone through March '41, obviously I was mistaken. By the way, I wasn't aware when I said some complimentary things about this site while posting an earlier question that you were actually the person who ran that site when you replied. Lucky I only said good things! :D Seriously, though, now that I know you are on this forum, I will say it again, that site is a marvelous resource, so many primary documents reproduced, you are doing everyone with an interest in all aspects of the 1941 desert war a tremendous service by building and maintaining it. An outstanding source of information, so thank you very much!

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Mike Yaklich

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#4

Post by Urmel » 24 Sep 2016, 19:00

Thanks Mike, much appreciated, and I am glad it was of help.

I am slowly adding to the war diary, but it's very slowly, due to work and family pressures.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#5

Post by jwsleser » 24 Dec 2016, 19:15

Montanari's Le operazioni in Africa settentrionale tomo II (Tobruk) page 133 states the attack on 17 April was with the tanks from Ariete (four M13 and seven L3), two German infantry companies and one German MG company. La prima controffensiva Italo-Tedesca page 123 states it was six M13s and seven L3s.

From Montanari, the German MG company failed to show and the two German infantry companies were late, forcing the Ariete to attack alone.

No Italian infantry is mentioned in either account (La prima controffensiva only states two companies without naming the nationality).

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#6

Post by Urmel » 26 Dec 2016, 12:24

https://rommelsriposte.com/2016/05/03/d ... pril-1941/

Mixed attack force. It seems Montanari has that wrong.

I'm wondering now if PzJg 605 was involved as well, or if those were Italian portees.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#7

Post by jwsleser » 31 Dec 2016, 23:15

Andreas

I have my best assistant working on this issue. She has been on top of the research all morning.
SylviaMap3.jpg
Mixed attack force. It seems Montanari has that wrong.
I would be careful is making this statement without better research. Citing the war diary is useful but hardly definitive. While the diary is an excellent source to see what those individuals understood at the time, it doesn’t mean that their understanding was correct or even complete. Unlike the writer of the diary, Montanari has spend years researching the reality of the Italian Army in 2GM.

So far I haven’t discovered any source that supports the contention that a battalion of the Trento was involved on 17 April. Not even the Australian account you cite states the infantry were Italians. The UK account also states the tanks were alone (Playfair v.2 page 38). The Italian accounts are the only ones that explain the issues between the tanks and infantry.

I have been spending time understanding all parts of the Axis activity on 14-18 April. As you recommend to Mike, I have looked at where the subordinate units of the Trento were during this time frame. From Montanari.

-7º bersaglieri was still far west so was not available.
-I/61º Under the command of the Brescia. Takes part in the attack on the 15th. Takes part in the attack on the 18th.
-II/61º Under the command of the Brescia. Badly disordered on the 15th, trucked back to Ain el-Gazala on the 16th. Doesn’t return to the western sector but is moved to Sollum with the division on the 19th.
-I/62º destroyed on the 16th.
-II/62º was still west near Barce.

Only the I/61º is forward on the 17th. It is assigned to Brescia and is holding the perimeter. None of the Brescia’s infantry is forward at this time. In fact, when the Trento is ordered to move to Sollum on the 18th, the battalion isn't free to move until relived by the III/8º bersaglieri.

This battalion is involved on the attack on the 18th. The Australian account states the initial attack appeared to be to cover the withdrawal of the enemy infantry that was still forward near the wire from the 17th (pg. 169). Then the Australian OH states that concentrations of infantry are seen west of Ras el-Medauuar in the afternoon. This matches the Italian account about the I/61º which began its attack in the afternoon. If the I/61º is attacking on the 18th, it can’t the infantry that participated in the operation on the 17th.

The commander of the VII battaglione carri M submitted a report on 21 April (Montanari allegato 5) addressing the issues with the M13 tanks (In ottemporanza alla richiesta odierna comunico brevemente e per sommi capi (a causa della situazione particolare in cui si trova questo reparto — investimento a Tobruk — e la conseguente impossibilità di avere a disposizione dati precisi ed elementi sicuri di giudizio) le notizie relative al comportamento dei carri M13-40). In this report he states that the tanks attacked alone.

La prima controffensive states that the attack on the 17th “con colonna tedesca, forte di due compagnia e un reparto carri dell’Ariete (6 carri M e 7 carri L):” (page 123).

In tallying the losses during this period, Trento only shows losses for the 15th and 16th (ibid same page fn 1). Ariete losses are given for the 16th thru the 18th (fn 3). The style used in this series is that if in combat, the unit is listed even if the losses are ‘nil’.

I am trying to check German sources. I was hoping to pull the copy of Taysen’s Tobruk 1941 from the college library, but ISCARL is closed until Tuesday. I hope to pull it then and see if Taysen discusses this attack in any detail.

Is all this conclusive? No. Is this topic more than simply saying Montanari is wrong? Yes.

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#8

Post by Urmel » 01 Jan 2017, 00:29

Hi Jeff

I'm happy with your additional research. Unlike Montanari I consider you a trustworthy source :milwink:

I've got Taysen at home, but won't get to it until the 10th.

Happy new year to you and yours including your research assistant!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#9

Post by David W » 01 Jan 2017, 15:03

Great info, funny photo.

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#10

Post by jwsleser » 03 Jan 2017, 22:22

I seem to remember tons of books on Tobruk when I was growing up, yet today they appear to be scarer than hen’s teeth….

I got over to ISCARL this and pull their copy of Taysen. I was disappointed as he didn’t offer anything we didn’t already have.

(page 112)
Auch ein erneuter Versuch am 17. April mit den letzten zehn Panzern der Division Ariete, einem Infanteriebataillon der Division Trento un den beiden schweren Kompanien des deutsches Kradschützenbataillon 15 scheiterte. Diesmal eilten die Panzer unter der Führung eines deutschen Offiziers weit voraus, drangen sogar in den Verteidgungsgürtel ein und wurden alle bis auf einen abgeschlossen. Der Angriff der Infanterie blieb vor dem Drahthindernis liegen. Im Morgengrauen des 18. April wurde die Truppe 1,5 km zurückgenommen.
That is all. This passage is not footnoted so his source is unknown. It does appear to basically echo the DAK war diary and doesn’t added anything new to our understanding. Taysen does state that the infantry did not withdraw until the morning of the 18th which supports the Italian version of the events.

I did look at two other books on the shelves. Anthony Hall-Smith’s Tobruk only addresses the events on 16 April (and very sparingly at that) and doesn’t mention the 17th at all (page 64). James Stock’s book Tobruk (Ballantine series) mentions Italian infantry on the 17th, but this passage lacks any mention of German infantry (page 103). All the sources that identify units state the German motorcycle units were present. I feel this passage (again not footnoted) appears taken from the Australian history with some gap filling.

What is significant to me is only the Italian books detail the events of the 17th. All the other sources treat it is passing or not at all. There are several reasons for this, but from a researcher’s point of view it is likely the need to use Italian sources to complete the picture. Taysen does use La prima controffensiva but this account is less complete than that in Montanari (Montanari's work was published four years after Taysen's so not available for use).

Andreas, do you have the Ariete diary that covers this period?

I have started to look for other Italian sources that might cover this period in A.S. As I am currently deep into researching the CSIR, I am not sure whether I will spend the time and money to ferret out other sources in the near future.

Too many books to buy, not enough money.

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#11

Post by Oasis » 13 Jan 2017, 16:21

Hi, I pass you what results to me. Please accept my poor translation.
Toni

"The western area of the perimeter comprising P. 187 was under command of Brescia Division.
CTA orders on 17 april to renew the attack to Pilastrino with two german motorc. companies supported by some tanks: in the meantime, Brescia will participate moving with II/61 (Trento) from P. 187 to Pilastrino. P.209 is holded by the australians and some german elements will try to take it in the night on 18 april: if they will succeed, II/61 will occupy the site; if unsuccess, II/61 will attack it in the morning of 18 with some german troops.

At 11 am. of 17, the commander of II/61 informs that P.187 is not occupied by his troops as too exposed to artillery fire, but it is to be considered in italian hands as it is not accessible to australians due to italian fire.

Rommel orders an attack at 1 PM with 32° carristi Ariete (with 4 tanks M13 and 7 L/3 driven by 11 voluntary officers, as the mission is considered 'without return', leaded by Ten. Giuseppe D'Ambro), two cp. of german infantry and one of german MG, from Carrier Hill to Ras el-Medauuar (P.209 stronghold R2) presidiated by elements of 2/23 australian. The attack starts with the only Ariete tanks, as MG troops will not show at all and german infantry will arrive later. Infantry, when it arrives, rush forward but is immobilized in front of the barbed wire by enemy artillery. Ariete tanks reached their assigned positions near stronghold R2, but must retreat under the strong enemy art. fire (3RHA and 1RTR) supporting 2/48 btn, after losing 4 tanks (of which one destroyed). A little northwards german elements in presence of Rommel hit by mistake with 3 a.t. guns two italian tanks that were heading towards them ('friendly fire', as also happened the day before). Then the attack is suspended without any result, while in the meantime II/61 manages to reach P.187 strongly beaten by enemy fire.
Rommel at this point must resign, attributing the failure to a deficiency of the German units training and unpreparedness of those Italian.
All attacks will be suspended until 30 April.

Sources: Rizzo G., "Buche e Croci nel Deserto", 1969; SME Archive in Rome (Brescia Division); Genovesi E., "Bu Ngem", 1968.

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#12

Post by jwsleser » 19 Jan 2017, 21:58

Tony

I finally had some time to get back to this issue. I also needed to carefully think about what your provided.

Thank you for the additional information. The detail is most helpful. Is it possible for you to PM or post the original Italian? Your translation raises some questions. Which parts of your post came from which source?

Here are my current thoughts. I will note the items that need to be clarified.

The attack to secure Ft. Pilastrino was planned to be a multi-day operation. Two lines of attack were planned.

-Ariete with German infantry was to attack P. 209 and then carry on to Pilastrino (or should that be reversed: a German attack supported by Ariete’s tanks).

-Brescia was to move from P.187 forward with Germans/Ariete against Pilastrino.

NOTE: I assume the above based on the fact that the German/Ariete attack actually seize R2, which is south of P. 209, while P. 187 is northeast of P. 209. The use of the word ‘meanwhile’ when describing the Brescia’s part of the plan also indicates two separate parts. That the Germans would have Ariete’s tanks in support while Brescia would not again indicates two different lines of attack. What is not stated is the actual timing of both attacks.

What is unclear is whether the Axis plan was to penetrate on the 17th, secure P. 209 on the 18th, and continue towards Pilastrino on the 19th; or attack and secure P. 209 on the 17th and continue towards Pilastrino on the 18th (problem with dates in your translation).

Needs clarification: Did the Axis believe that the Italians already held P. 187? Brescia involvement is moving FROM P. 187 to Pilastrino. The comment by the battalion commander at 171100APR41 indicates that an attack against P. 187 wasn’t ordered/planned, but rather the battalion is in a support role. Or were the Italians to move up and occupy P. 187 after the Germans had secured P. 209. This understanding could be implied by the on-order mission to seize P. 209 if the Germans failed.

Then again, further down your post, you translate that II/61° managed to occupy P. 187 (I assume this is from Brescia’s report).

The Australian OH agrees with the German/Ariete part of the attack, but no mention of the seizure of P. 187.

Clarity is not helped by the Australian account. Where the Axis sources indicate that coordination completely broke down before the attack started, their account describes a coordinated attack. Where two different attacks should have happened by my analysis, the Australians only report one. Where only the German/Ariete attack used tanks in the Axis account (hence there should be an infantry attack without tanks), the Australians only describe a combined infantry/tank attack.

With all this, what I feel is closer to truth is that an attack was planned of which a battalion of Trento was involved. This attack was to be executed in two phases: an attack on the 17th by the German/Ariete group to seize P. 209. An attack on the 18th involving both the German/Ariete group and the Trento battalion to seize Pilastrino. This appears to match all the accounts. This frameworks allows the German account to state a battalion of Trento was involved in the attack to penetrate and seize Pilastrino without the battalion attacking on the 17th. It even accommodates the statement at the end of your translation “while in the meantime II/61 manages to reach P.187 strongly beaten by enemy fire.” This implies moving to occupy a jumping off position for the attack on the next day that is only contested by longer range fires.

Even this latter point is challenged by the Australian official. It states on page 169 about 18 April “During the morning, however, new concentrations of enemy infantry were seen gathering to the west of Ras el Medauuar; these made half-hearted attempts to push in on the right flank and centre [the way to get to P. 187] of the 2/48th Battalion. Artillery fire from the 51st Field Regiment quickly checked them and threw the assault parties into confusion.” This implies that Trento didn’t hold P. 187 on the 17th and only moved to attack it on the 18th.

At issue (for me) is which battalion attacked on the 18th? Was it the I/61° as stated in the Italian official? I need to check this again to insure that I/61 is specifically stated and not my analysis driving that understanding. Or did in fact the II/61° return to the front lines by the 17th?

Who thought this event could be so muddy given the lack of water in the desert :-)

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#13

Post by Oasis » 24 Jan 2017, 22:55

Hi Jeff
It was a hard job putting together more sources and trying to clarify and summarize the whole, so please accept this result as one interpretation of the facts and not “the truth”. If my father (1° Articelere) was still with us we probably could have had one more good opinion.
Ciao
Toni

14 april
Ponath and Olbrich are having their Odyssey with an end at about 8,30 AM.
Rommel plans an attack for 6 PM with:
- 5.Leichte and Ariete from SW
- Brescia with two columns (I/61 and II/61 of Trento) towards p.145 (Pilastrino).
This attack at last minute will be postponed to the next afternoon as Trento failed to arrive from the western Balbia.

15 april
Rommel is forced to suspend once more the attack as Ariete is unable to reach the startpoint of Bir el Sherif, but his counterorder will not reach Brescia command that already launched the two planned columns:
- I/61 will reach p.145 but at 8 PM is blocked by hard artillery fire and will withdrow overnight leaving back a mortar company
- II/61 is pinned down about 300 meters west of p. 187 (Bir el Medauuar).

16 april
I/61 survivors are sent back to Ain el Gazala to reorganize and the mortar company is overwhelmed by australians near p.145.
II/61 entrenches near p.187.
Rommel orders at 5 PM a new attack against p.187 to Ariete from Bir Sherif and I/62 Trento (just arrived) from Carrier Hill to p.201. Around 8 PM I/62 will be almost totally dissolved, being overwhelmed by an australian encircling counterattack. Ariete tanks, approaching for the attack to p.187, cannot fire against the enemy due to the presence of hundreds of italian prisoners (I/62) among the tanks and Bren-carriers.

17 april
In the morning, CTA orders a new attack in the afternoon:
- two cmp of german motorcyclists with some tanks towards Pilastrino
- II/61 from p.187 (which first must be occupied even if under italian control) to Pilastrino following the fastest german motorized troops.
The german attack fails and II/61 occupies p.187 and stop there under british artillery strong fire.
Another attack is ordered at 1 PM with Ariete (13° carristi) from Carrier Hill, two german cps and one cp MG to p.209. Only Ariete starts (as MG will not show at all) reaching the edge of sp R2 and then forced to withdraw by british guns. In the meantime the two delayed german inf cps (15.Kradschuetzen) attack is stuck near the wire, where they stop to be ready for the next day attack.
In the afternoon Rommel orders for the night a german coup-de-main against p.209: if successful II/61 will consolidate the place, in case of failure a new attack with II/61 and german forces will be effected the next morning.

18 april
The night attack is suspended again and repeated by same forces at 9,45 AM reaching the nearby surroundings of p.209 but without any further success. Then the attack falls.

19 april
I/61 and II/61 are withdrawn from the frontline leaving in place only two MG companies for a couple of days.

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#14

Post by nmao » 27 Jan 2017, 00:13

Hi!
Haven't read everything, but maybe this article can add something:
http://www.assocarri.it/Pubblicazioni/R ... pagine.pdf (from page 25)

regards,

-Nuno

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Re: Point 187- Ras el Medawar- April 17, 1941

#15

Post by Oasis » 27 Jan 2017, 23:07

Thanks Nuno.

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