Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

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LColombo
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Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#1

Post by LColombo » 22 Nov 2017, 10:38

Most Italian infantry divisions in WW2 were named after Italian cities and regions, but with rare exceptions (for example the 12th Division "Sassari") these names had nothing to do with the area the men in the division came from. If I understand correctly, while each Division had men from all over Italy, the majority of the men in a Division were recruited from a certain area; did this area coincide with the town where each division had its headquarters?

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#2

Post by Dili » 24 Nov 2017, 00:15

As far as i have read there was a policy to strength Italian reunification by mixing soldiers origins. Don't know to what extent and intensity it was pursued.


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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#3

Post by jwsleser » 24 Nov 2017, 18:33

I have checked several books and none provide a complete answer. My sources:

Montanari L’esercito italiano alla viglia della 2º guerra mondiale
USSME L’esercito italiano tra la 1ª e 2ª guerra mondiale
TME 30-420 Handbook on the Italian Military Forces
Military Intelligence Service Order of Battle of the Italian Army

There were 16 comando difesa di territoriale (14 in the madrepatria and 2 in Libya) that corresponded to the planned corpo d’armata in wartime. All services for a corps was drawn from the associated territoriale. The corpo d’armate for the corazzati, alpini, celere, and autotrasportabili didn’t have an associated territoriale but drew conscripts with the requisite skills from all districts.

The comando difesa di territoriale were subdivided into 28 zone militare which corresponded to the planned 28 divisions of the mobilized army. These in turn were divided into distretti militare. In 1940, there were 106 districts in the madrepatria proper, 1 in Rhodes, 4 in A.S., and 6 in A.O.I. Regiments received conscripts/replacements from their associated military district (numbered the same as the regiment).

When the army was expanded, no new distretti or zone were created. Instead, existing areas provide forces to multiple units. The existing 117 distretti were able to support the infantry of the 65 divisions.

I believe the policy of mixing soldiers from different areas was abandon with the Ordinamento Mussolini (1926).

This is what I have been able to gleam from my sources. I can’t say it is 100% accurate. Any comments/corrections are welcome.

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LColombo
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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#4

Post by LColombo » 24 Nov 2017, 21:08

I also think that the policy of mixing men from different areas was used in WWI but not in WWII. My main 'field' being the Navy, I do not have any authoritative sources about the Army. My impression that headquarters=area of recruitment was given by the fact that, for instance, the 7th Division "Lupi di Toscana", despite its name, is said to have mainly been composed of Lombards, and it was indeed headquartered in Bergamo, Lombardy; two of the four infantry divisions that participated in the defense of Sicily in summer 1943, the 28th "Aosta" and the 54th "NapolI", are said to have been mainly composed of Sicilians, and indeed their headquarters were respectively Palermo and Caltanissetta, both cities of Sicily; and some other such examples.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#5

Post by jwsleser » 25 Nov 2017, 01:04

I am not sure I have the mobilization bit correctly laid out. I was checking some other sources and found an article by John Gooch, Italian Military Competence (Journal of Strategic Studies (June 1982). Here Gooch implies that the earlier system had not been replaced:
This contorted system produced enormous technical complications when it came to the problem of mobilizing reservists for war, since their units would always be at a distance from their homes, and might quite conceivably be at the other end of the country. In terms of sheer military efficiency, the most effective step would have been to have adopted a fully regional system like the German one in place of the cumbrous national one. That this was never attempted during the liberal era was due precisely to the suspicion felt by the generals about the depth of Italian patriotism. (Page 263)


I am not sure when the liberal era was, but certainly was before Mussolini. As Gooch never returns to mobilization, he implies that the system never changed.

If the distretti militare are numbered the same as the regiments, then the Lupi di Toscana fits the earlier pattern. 77th (Belluno) and 78th (Taranto) served in the Lombardi region. I don’t have a list of the zona (or a map of them), so I don’t know whether the 7th zona (Lupi) was in Brescia.

There are still too many pieces of the puzzle missing.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#6

Post by jwsleser » 25 Nov 2017, 18:51

L’esercito e i suoi corpi volume terzo tomo 1 has the changes of the divisions over time in specchio 2. Looking at divisioni militare territoriale 7ª, you have the district in Trento (1920), Verona (1923), then Brescia (1926). In 1934, the name of the division stationed in Brescia was changed to « Leonessa », then to « Lupi di Toscana » in 1938.

In Volume secondo, tomo 1, we find:
Il 1º gennaio 1935, pur conservando il proprio numero, le brigate assumono il nominativo delle corrispondenti divisioni militari territoriali. [On 1 January 1935, while retaining their own number, the brigades assume the name of the corresponding territorial military divisions.] (Page 195 my translation.)
Then
Con l’adozione della divisioni binaria, prevista dalla legge sull’ordinamento 22 dicembre 1938, si verifica una trasformazione organica di tutto l’Esercito e la fanteria viene organica di su cinquantuno divisioni costituite con i reggimenti gemelli delle brigata di ordine (delle quali di massima assumono anche nome), due divisioni motorizzate (da impiegare quale riserva mobile d’armata o del Comando Supremo, per manovra a largo raggio e per azioni a notevoli distanze), due divisioni corazzata (da impiegare a massa come mezzo di manovra or di rottura), cinque divisioni alpine. L’Arma viene a comprendere complessivamente tre reggimenti granatieri, cento di fanteria divisionale, quattro di fanteria motorizzata, dodici bersaglieri, dieci alpini, sei di fanteria carrista: ciascun reggimento si compone di un comando e di un numero vario di battaglione unità minori ed ha annesso, di massima, un deposito territoriale. [With the adoption of the binary divisions envisaged by the Ordinance Law of December 22, 1938, there was an organic transformation of the whole army and the infantry was organized with fifty-one divisions formed with the twin regiments of the brigade of origin (of which the maximum [of these] also bear [keep] the name), two motorized divisions (to be used as a mobile reserve army or by the Supreme Command, for wide-ranging maneuvers and for actions over considerable distances), two armored divisions (to be used in mass as a means of maneuver or break-through), and five alpine divisions. The Force includes a total of three grenadier regiments, one hundred divisional infantry, four motorized infantry, twelve bersaglieri, ten alpine, six armored. Each regiment is made up of a command and a number of smaller battalions, and has attached, in principle, a territorial depot.] (page 197 my translation).
Note the final statement that a territorial depot is included, however the paragraph doesn’t indicate that the depots maintained their historic connection to specific regiments. It also implies that not all regiments had their own unique depots.

Then:
Il decreto 24 agosto 1939 assegna a tutte le divisioni un numero e un nominativo, in sostituzione di quelli adottati dalle divisioni militari territoriali nel 1934. [The Decree of 24 August 1939 assigns to all divisions a number and a name, replacing those adopted by the territorial military divisions in 1934.] (page 197 my translation).
Now there is no correlation between unit name/number and the territorale/distretti name/number that provide conscripts to that unit. Does this mean that units draw conscripts from their traditional districts or from the district they are currently stationed? I don’t know.

Just some more confusion.

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#7

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 25 Feb 2018, 16:06

Hi,

could somebody confirm are the recruitment regions/provinces for the following divisions stationed in Independent State of Croatia during the period 1941-1943 correct?


12th Infantry Division 'Sassari' = Sardinia

13th Infantry Division 'Re" = Friuli/Furlania

15th Infantry Division 'Bergamo' = Lombardy

18th Infantry Division 'Messina' = Sicily

21st Infantry Division 'Granatieri di Sardegna' = Sardinia

22nd Infantry Division 'Cacciatori delle Alpi' = Perugia

32nd Infantry Division 'Marche' = Treviso

57th Infantry Division 'Lombardia' = Lombardy

151st Infantry Division 'Perugia' = Perugia

153rd Infantry Division 'Macerata' = Macerata

154th Infantry Division 'Murge' = Puglia/Apulia

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Eisvogel

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#8

Post by zaptiè » 26 Feb 2018, 19:59

No , at last, for "Granatieri di Sardegna": this elite unit are made of man tall over 180cm and come from every part of Italy

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#9

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 27 Feb 2018, 01:46

zaptiè wrote:No , at last, for "Granatieri di Sardegna": this elite unit are made of man tall over 180cm and come from every part of Italy
Dear zaptiè,

thank you very much on clarification. It helps me to gauge the precision of the source, which claimed that all of these particular divisions had those recruitment areas.

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#10

Post by LColombo » 27 Feb 2018, 19:57

I cannot contribute with precise information, but it seems very suspicious to me that almost all of those divisions would recruit their men from the area they were named after. As I pointed out when opening this topic, for the vast majority of the divisions, the name had nothing to do with their recruiting area. My impression is that the source just made the apparently intuitive assumption "name"="recruiting area" and presented it as a fact. An exception is the "Sassari" Division that was, indeed, mostly made of Sardinians.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#11

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 28 Feb 2018, 10:58

LColombo wrote:I cannot contribute with precise information, but it seems very suspicious to me that almost all of those divisions would recruit their men from the area they were named after. As I pointed out when opening this topic, for the vast majority of the divisions, the name had nothing to do with their recruiting area. My impression is that the source just made the apparently intuitive assumption "name"="recruiting area" and presented it as a fact. An exception is the "Sassari" Division that was, indeed, mostly made of Sardinians.
Dear LColombo,

thank you very much for your feedback. Yes, I've read your previous posts on this topic and I appreciate your insight.

Basically, I've posted this list counting on knowledgeable people like you to help me check this list, which has been published in a popular magazine.

What I see on the list is that it mixes provinces, regions and historical areas which did not exist in formal administrative division of Italy, so it looks suspicious even by that element that it doesn't apply the same administrative level units as the recruitment areas.

Again, thank you for your comment.

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#12

Post by Eugen Pinak » 01 Mar 2018, 10:59

LColombo wrote:Most Italian infantry divisions in WW2 were named after Italian cities and regions, but with rare exceptions (for example the 12th Division "Sassari") these names had nothing to do with the area the men in the division came from. If I understand correctly, while each Division had men from all over Italy, the majority of the men in a Division were recruited from a certain area; did this area coincide with the town where each division had its headquarters?
According to prewar "Armament Year-books of the League of Nations", recruitment for Italian Army units was done on the all-national basis, except Alpini troops. This was probably the case for WW II as well.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#13

Post by LColombo » 01 Mar 2018, 18:31

Eugen Pinak wrote:
LColombo wrote:Most Italian infantry divisions in WW2 were named after Italian cities and regions, but with rare exceptions (for example the 12th Division "Sassari") these names had nothing to do with the area the men in the division came from. If I understand correctly, while each Division had men from all over Italy, the majority of the men in a Division were recruited from a certain area; did this area coincide with the town where each division had its headquarters?
According to prewar "Armament Year-books of the League of Nations", recruitment for Italian Army units was done on the all-national basis, except Alpini troops. This was probably the case for WW II as well.
As jwsleser pointed out above, this was the case in WWI, but was probably abandoned during the interwar period. In WWII most men in a given infantry regiment apparently came from the same recruiting area, although there were also soldiers from other regions/provinces.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#14

Post by zaptiè » 01 Mar 2018, 19:00

Also in post wwII italian army infantry btg , soldiers came fron differen district . It wa a costant in Italian army with the declarated intention of national cohesion.

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Re: Infantry Divisions recruiting areas/headquarters

#15

Post by apple pie » 01 Mar 2018, 19:28

I can only give this one small example--my father was in an M Battalion (Alberico da Barbiano) which was stationed in Ravenna. He says the men in the battalion were from various places in Italy. Many "dialects" were spoken.

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