Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

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Wargames
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Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Wargames » 02 Sep 2018 19:41

I have a question on Italian capabilities (Could not access Commando Supremo). Both the Italian Cr.42 and Cr.32 fighter carried a 220 pound (100 kg) bomb which was designed for armor piercing and anti-concrete use. I found no other Italian 220 pound bombs.

I am wondering if these aircraft could have been used to bomb a small, seven man pillbox. The weapon appears to have about 4 feet of concrete penetration. Slow and maneuverable, it would seem these planes could do the job and were fitted with bombs for that very purpose. Yet I find no evidence they actually performed the role (A direct hit would have been required.). Does anyone know of their being used for this? And how many planes it took to hit one?

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jwsleser
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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by jwsleser » 03 Sep 2018 16:00

The RA (and air forces in general) are not my area of expertise. I will note that the LW attacks against the Metaxas Line forts and pillboxes were very ineffective. These were larger targets than the pillboxes you describe, yet precision platforms such as Ju 87s had difficulty hitting them. A fighter aircraft in nearly level flight would find getting a hit very rare.

Hopefully someone with a better background on this issue will respond.

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Dili » 03 Sep 2018 20:52

Regia Aeronautica had 2 kinds of 100kg bomb

100 T "Torpedini" 100kg 49.5kg tritolo against troops and soft targets

100 M "Mina" 109kg 27.5kg tritolo employed against merchant ships and light armored naval ships and harbours. So in British/US terms can be called a SAP bomb.

I am not aware of Cr 32 carrying 100kg bomb. Cr 42 could carry 2 but at expense of fuel weight.

I doubt the 100 M could pierce 4ft of concrete, where you got this information?

Cr 42 were indeed employed to attack pillboxes and trenches in typical fighter bomber dive attacks so not at angles of pure dive bombers, still being a biplane it could certainly get a nice dive.

Note that a bomb released from low level and a not so much dive speed will penetrate less than one released from 10000ft.

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Wargames » 04 Sep 2018 08:28

Dili wrote:
03 Sep 2018 20:52
Regia Aeronautica had 2 kinds of 100kg bomb

100 T "Torpedini" 100kg 49.5kg tritolo against troops and soft targets

100 M "Mina" 109kg 27.5kg tritolo employed against merchant ships and light armored naval ships and harbours. So in British/US terms can be called a SAP bomb.
The "Mina" is the one I'm probably thinking of. It uses a shaped (hollow) charge.


I am not aware of Cr 32 carrying 100kg bomb. Cr 42 could carry 2 but at expense of fuel weight.

I doubt the 100 M could pierce 4ft of concrete, where you got this information?

I found one source claiming 50 kg bomb without a shaped charge would penetrate two feet of concrete (altitude/height not provided). I took a guess that 100 kg with a shaped charge would penetrate four feet. That's probably overstated but I only need it to penetrate two feet of concrete.

For example, a 110 kg (250 pound) GBU-39 will penetrate three feet of steel reinforced concrete and up to 6. Obviously a better bomb than we're discussing but I still only need two feet.


Cr 42 were indeed employed to attack pillboxes and trenches in typical fighter bomber dive attacks so not at angles of pure dive bombers, still being a biplane it could certainly get a nice dive.
I was thinking a Cr.32 or .42 could be used similar to the German Hs 123.
Note that a bomb released from low level and a not so much dive speed will penetrate less than one released from 10000ft.
Agreed. This could be a problem as the pillboxes I'm interested in had roofs 15 inches thick (381mm). Although less than two feet (600mm) the bomb may not generate sufficient velocity from a Cr.42. Did Italy have a bomb a Cr.42 could carry with more certain results?

Thanks for your reply.

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Urmel » 04 Sep 2018 09:06

Dili wrote:
03 Sep 2018 20:52
Note that a bomb released from low level and a not so much dive speed will penetrate less than one released from 10000ft.
Not sure that is right if the bomb is released by a dive bomber:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3473
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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Dili » 06 Sep 2018 05:32

Wargames wrote:
04 Sep 2018 08:28
Dili wrote:
03 Sep 2018 20:52
Regia Aeronautica had 2 kinds of 100kg bomb

100 T "Torpedini" 100kg 49.5kg tritolo against troops and soft targets

100 M "Mina" 109kg 27.5kg tritolo employed against merchant ships and light armored naval ships and harbours. So in British/US terms can be called a SAP bomb.
The "Mina" is the one I'm probably thinking of. It uses a shaped (hollow) charge.

No it does not use shaped charge, like i said it is tritolo(TNT) it is just a SAP bomb.
I am not aware of Cr 32 carrying 100kg bomb. Cr 42 could carry 2 but at expense of fuel weight.

I doubt the 100 M could pierce 4ft of concrete, where you got this information?

I found one source claiming 50 kg bomb without a shaped charge would penetrate two feet of concrete (altitude/height not provided). I took a guess that 100 kg with a shaped charge would penetrate four feet. That's probably overstated but I only need it to penetrate two feet of concrete.

For example, a 110 kg (250 pound) GBU-39 will penetrate three feet of steel reinforced concrete and up to 6. Obviously a better bomb than we're discussing but I still only need two feet.

Well then if it is from another whatever bomb you should not state as if it this bomb, that is transmitting erroneous information.
Cr 42 were indeed employed to attack pillboxes and trenches in typical fighter bomber dive attacks so not at angles of pure dive bombers, still being a biplane it could certainly get a nice dive.
I was thinking a Cr.32 or .42 could be used similar to the German Hs 123.

I think it was more or less possible, but it will never, also neither the Hs 123 get the dive speeds of a pure dive bomber, for a start a biplane have much more drag.
Note that a bomb released from low level and a not so much dive speed will penetrate less than one released from 10000ft.
Agreed. This could be a problem as the pillboxes I'm interested in had roofs 15 inches thick (381mm). Although less than two feet (600mm) the bomb may not generate sufficient velocity from a Cr.42. Did Italy have a bomb a Cr.42 could carry with more certain results?

Thanks for your reply.
No, i am not aware that Cr-42 could take the 160kg bomb which was the only bomb that could be said to be AP in Italian arsenal, except some special very low number of 420, 630 build in mid to late war.
Urmel wrote:
04 Sep 2018 09:06
Dili wrote:
03 Sep 2018 20:52
Note that a bomb released from low level and a not so much dive speed will penetrate less than one released from 10000ft.
Not sure that is right if the bomb is released by a dive bomber:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3473
For modern dive bombers (read not biplanes) i get it could be more or less equal.

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Wargames » 13 Sep 2018 00:00

Dili wrote:
06 Sep 2018 05:32
No, i am not aware that Cr-42 could take the 160kg bomb which was the only bomb that could be said to be AP in Italian arsenal, except some special very low number of 420, 630 build in mid to late war.
Do you have info on this 160 kg bomb such as how many an Sm.79 could carry or a Br.20?
I can't find the bomb at all.

Thank you!

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Dili » 18 Sep 2018 05:54

Bomba da 160 P: (caricata con 24 kg di NPA) Incrociatori di medio tonnellaggio – Ridotte e fortini con cupole corazzate. Aveva una capacità perforante di 90mm da una quota di 4500 m.

SM. 79 could not take it as far as i am aware. I think this bomb had only horizontal storage and SM 79 had only vertical. Maybe external in place of torpedos is the only way i can see. Br.20 bis could take up to 12 but at expense of fuel (i found this number difficult to believe with 4 by side in bomb bay, but it is what i have). Z.1007 could take 4. Z.1018 3 external (i don't know why it could not take them internally since it could the 250kg bomb). S.84 i think it could take 3 internal. P.108 said could take 20.

Btw i just checked and the Cr.42 could take 2 160kg bomb, likewise the G.50 and M.C.200.


This bomb should not be mistaken for 160CS which was an anti submarine bomb. I have also references of a 160T a generic GP bomb but i have no more information so should be taken as doubtful.

Edit: it should be noted that Italy had not this bomb initially, i am not sure when they would have it available but i think not in 1940. Maybe mid 1941.

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Re: Cr.42 and Cr.32 aircraft?

Post by Wargames » 28 Sep 2018 11:13

Thank you!

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