Military terminology

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4545
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 15:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

Military terminology

Post by VJK » 31 May 2019 14:57

Hi,
Could someone please give a translation for the term "fuori quadro", which is used when an officer is placed as such, and explain it's significance.
E.g. a general ceases to be at disposition and is placed "fuori quadro".

Many thanks in advance,

VJK

zaptiè
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 12:22
Location: north italy

Re: Military terminology

Post by zaptiè » 31 May 2019 15:18

means that is not in a precise role , not organic in any unit or comand.

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4545
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 15:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: Military terminology

Post by VJK » 31 May 2019 15:28

Many thanks for your prompt reply. What would be the appropriate military term in English to describe the situation - maybe "awaiting orders?"

Kind regards,

VJK

zaptiè
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 12:22
Location: north italy

Re: Military terminology

Post by zaptiè » 03 Jun 2019 11:41

MYbe better:" At Dispositions".

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4545
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 15:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: Military terminology

Post by VJK » 03 Jun 2019 11:48

Thank you very much, that would fit.

Kind regards,

VJK

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 735
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Military terminology fuori quadro

Post by Loïc » 03 Jun 2019 15:42

I wonder if the ango-saxons don't use unattached personnel/officers for this case,
even sometimes I see they use our french hors cadre (fuori quadro in italian)

contrary to the Italian Army the french hors cadre doesn't mean only awaiting orders or at dispositions, not in precise role, it can mean military personnel detached in a staff, a mission, services or in special functions etc...covering miscelleaneous situations

Regards
Loïc L.

User avatar
Steen Ammentorp
Member
Posts: 3171
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 12:48
Location: Denmark

Re: Military terminology

Post by Steen Ammentorp » 03 Jun 2019 20:33

I am still in doubt as to whether "awaiting orders" or "at disposition" gives the correct meaning of "fuori quadro".

As I understand it general officers could be placed on 8 different lists (Not including technical/special services), separated in 2 sections Ufficiali in servizio permanente (Officers in active services) and Ufficiali in congedo (Officers on leave)

Ufficiali in servizio permanente:

In servizio permanente effettivo – As I understand it, simply officers in active service.

Fuori quadro – It is not my understanding that this means "awaiting orders" or "at disposition". Every general officers that I have seen on this list is holding a specific appointment, is assigned/attached to, or placed at disposal of a specific HQ, Command, and Ministry etc. Maybe unattached is closer, but it is my understanding that the officers is placed on this list simply by age or by request. Example:

FARINETTI Guido. – Dal 4 gennaio 1939-XVII è collocato fuori quadro per limite di commando, a mente dell'art. 35 della legge 7 giugno 1934-XII, n. 899, sostituito dall'art. 25 del R. decreto-legge 16 giugno 1937-XV, n. 944, continuando ad essere destinato al commando del Corpo d'armata di Torino per incarichi speciali.

Farinetti transferred to this list on his 58th birthday but continues in his previous function as attached for special assignment to the Torino Army Corps.

A Brigadier-General was at the time removed from active section at the age of 58, but the transfer to "fuori quadro" extended that by two years until the age of 60. So perhaps "fuori quadro" should be regarded as a supernumerary list to the established number of generals, but with lower pay.

In aspettativa per riduzione di quadri – list with unemployed and unpaid officer placed at the list at their own request.

Ufficiali invalidi riassunti in servizio sedentario – Disabled officer retained in sedentary duty.

Ufficiali in congedo:

Ufficiali in ausiliaria – Officers on leave prior to retirement, place on the list on ground of age.

Ufficiali di riserva – Retired officers

Ufficiali in congedo assoluto – Retired officers unable to being recalled.

Ufficiali del ruolo speciale/d'onore – Officers retained on special list.
Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War Two

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4545
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 15:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: Military terminology

Post by VJK » 04 Jun 2019 09:16

Hi Steen!

Thank you for your detailed overview, it certainly helps to explain a complicated situation to a better degree. I still have some doubts about using the term "supernumerary", as the Regio Esercito used the term "collocato in soprannumero" to specifically describe that particular situation. The same applies to "at disposition" (which is why I suggested "awaiting orders"), where the term "collocato a disposizione" is used. I would dearly love to find the most suitable term in English so that I can update my records accordingly.

Kind regards,

Valdis

User avatar
jwsleser
Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: 13 Jun 2005 14:02
Location: Leavenworth, KS

Re: Military terminology

Post by jwsleser » 04 Jun 2019 14:23

To be a bit more precise:
In servizio permanente effettivo – As I understand it, simply officers in active service.
S.P.E. is a commissioning appointment. It is similar to a regular army appointment in the US Army. It has protections/rights as the officer has been appointed for longterm service in the military.

Ufficiali di complemento is a reserve appointment. Normally serves two years then returns to civilian status with some annual training/assignments (often not done).

Most units in the R.E. were authorized a combination of S.P.E. and di complemento officers when mobilized. A significant problem during the war was the lack of ufficiali S.P.E. and many units only had ufficiali di complemento. Many Italian histories of the war give the appointment when naming the officer.

Either of these types of officers can be placed into the various statuses listed in this thread.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

User avatar
jwsleser
Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: 13 Jun 2005 14:02
Location: Leavenworth, KS

Re: Military terminology

Post by jwsleser » 05 Jun 2019 13:25

Fuori quadro

Did some digging in various dictionaries and books. Supernumerary is the best translation of the word given in various dictionaries. However, I feel there is a better word, I just can't quite remember it.

EDIT: Better might be 'inactive with pay'.

Fuori quadro originally was used to describe either officer cadre for skeleton units (units only formed when mobilized but officers are identified for positions within the unit) or for officers that have been selected but awaiting promotion (usually as a billet of the correct grade wasn’t available). This latter understanding fell into disuse.

During 1GM and 2GM, the term specifically meant S.P.E. officers placed into non-authorized positions. As I noted in my previous post, S.P.E. officers have certain rights/protections and that included employment. Rather than some system like half-pay, the R.E. kept S.P.E. officers ‘on the books’ as extras when a suitable billet was unavailable. Ufficiali di complemento could be release from service if excess to the army’s requirements. Ufficiali S.P.E. couldn’t be released and must be given employment.

The difference between collocato in soprannumero, collocato a disposizione, and fuori quadro is that the former two indicated a future planned assignment, a continuation of service. Both of these term applied to S.P.E. and di compl. officers. The latter term indicates an officer without any planned future assignment and likely awaiting retirement or is 'out of favor' and applies only to S.P.E. officers.

I hope this helps.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

zaptiè
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 12:22
Location: north italy

Re: Military terminology

Post by zaptiè » 05 Jun 2019 16:25

Officers "fuori quadro" where also in colonial administration temporary added to this non military service.

User avatar
jwsleser
Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: 13 Jun 2005 14:02
Location: Leavenworth, KS

Re: Military terminology

Post by jwsleser » 06 Jun 2019 13:40

In rereading my last post, I am not sure whether I was as clear as I should have been. Officers assigned to a unit as fuori quadro don't have any duties. It is an administrative assignment for pay and other administrative bookkeeping. There isn't any work/employment involved.

zaptiè
Officers "fuori quadro" where also in colonial administration temporary added to this non military service.
Interesting. A question to ensure I am understanding your comment.

Are these individuals R.E. ufficiali S.P.E. that are seconded to the colonial office/service? IBWs, are they working in the colonial administration and their fuori quadro status reflects that they are still in the R.E.?

Or are they colonial service officials with no connection to the army and they are working in non-authorized positions (i.e. supernumerary)?

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4545
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 15:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: Military terminology

Post by VJK » 06 Jun 2019 15:08

Hi Jeff,

These are R.E. ufficiali S.P.E. that are seconded to the colonial office/service.

E.g.: Alfredo GUZZONI as Generale di divisione S.P.E. was "In data 18 novembre 1935, cessa dal comando della divisione "Granatieri di Sardegna" (Roma) ed e collocato fuori quadro perche disponibile presso il ministero colonie".

Rodolfo GRAZIANI as Generale di corpo d'armata S.P.E. was "In data 30 novembre 1935 e nominato comandante designato d'armata, continuando rimanare fuori quadro perche disponibile presso il ministero colonie".

Kind regards,

VJK

User avatar
jwsleser
Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: 13 Jun 2005 14:02
Location: Leavenworth, KS

Re: Military terminology

Post by jwsleser » 06 Jun 2019 15:37

VJK

Thanks! That tracks with our understanding of fuori quadro.

I am wondering if they are drawing pay from both the army and the colonial office (quite likely). Good jig if you can it.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

Dili
Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 22:54
Location: Lusitania

Re: Military terminology

Post by Dili » 08 Jun 2019 17:52

Set aside. Without duties.

Return to “Italy under Fascism 1922-1945”