Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
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Brady
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#31

Post by Brady » 07 Aug 2019, 21:36

Again Thanks for the help,

They had plenty of Aluminum ?

The info on production capacity is interesting and help full

Spanish Iron Ore, I don't suppose you know if it were transported on Spanish ships, I am trying to think of a reason the British did not try and interdict it, presumably they traveled through Vichy Waters as well as Spanish, what was the Port in Spain they used ?

I came across these charts in "The Italian Navy and fascist Expansionism " and some of the figures don't seam to add up, or are misleading in there presentation:

Coal doesn't account for any indigenous out put for instance, and the amount of fuel Oil's for industry seams wrong, Rubber as you mentioned above was not an imported item ?

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#32

Post by DrG » 07 Aug 2019, 23:20

You are welcome! As I wrote in a previous post, I don't know why the Royal Navy did not try to blockade imports from Spain which, I agree with you, probably passed mostly through neutral waters. Anyway, the reasons that I assume underlie this decision were two:
1) to avoid diplomatic tensions with Spain;
2) because the Royal Navy hadn't enough submarines to operate against this route.
With regards to point 2, we should recall that Italian merchant ships to and from the Balkans were practically never attacked by the British. The submarine campaign against the North African convoys absorbed all the British assets in the Mediterranean.

With regards to "Table 2", the data about coal certainly is about anthracite alone and doesn't take into account lignite. The datum about steel, in realty, comprises also iron. The amount of pig iron is correct instead.

The last column of "Table 4" has a very deceptive title, maybe just for sake of brevity. Its correct title should be "Total to be met through importation". By the way, the amount for coal does not agree with the one in "Table 2" by the same author! If Italy really produced 1 million t of coal how could it cover the need of 12,061,500 t - 8,900,000 t = 3,161,500 t with it? Anyway, these data, as it's written, are focused only on estimates directly linked to the military needs (the amount of fuel, for example, is not for the "armaments industry" but for the Armed Forces themselves, at least mostly, and is based upon some pre-war quite pessimistic estimates), and ignore any other economic sector. It seems that the author or his source has made a bit of confusion here.

Maybe I expressed myself in an unclear way: I did state that Italy needed rubber, covering just part of its needs by synthetic production in the plant in Ferrara.

On the other hand, Italy had good amounts of bauxite ore and, until electric energy production was stable, it was able to produce more aluminum than required, exporting it to Germany too. Take into account that, on the other hand, aluminum for military use (aircraft cells) must be cast with other metals (copper, manganese, magnesium) in order to obtain the needed alloys (like duralumin), metals which were not always available.


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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#33

Post by DrG » 07 Aug 2019, 23:54

While I was browsing Zamagni's "Come perdere la guerra e vincere la pace", which I have read a dozen of years ago, I have found this table (please note: in Italy the separator for thousands is the dot, while the comma separates decimals), which may be of your interest because it gives a good idea of the potential output not exploited during the War. I cannot say if it's 100% correct, for example the column "Acciaio" = "Steel" certainly should be renamed "Acciaio e Ferro" = "Steel and Iron".
Zamagni.jpg

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#34

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 04:06

Thanks that is interesting, in many if not most cases wartime out put, at least in 40 and 41 are higher than pre war output

The rolling stock is Illuminating

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#35

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 15:04

You may also notice the sharp decrease in energy (coal) intensive products, like pig iron (ghisa), steel and iron (acciaio), and concrete (cemento).

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#36

Post by Dili » 08 Aug 2019, 15:56

DrG wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 18:53
Dili wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 17:12
The outcome of the war can be summarized by the strong memo that the British Admiralty sent to the Foreign Office in October 1947 about the Italian resistance to the cession of the Vittorio Veneto battleship, as dictated by the Paris Peace Treaty of 10 February 1947. It said: "To the Italians, a reminder is required that they declared war on us and we beat them. But before their defeat, they did us irreparable harm, which we cannot and they should not forget. Because of this harm, we are now a poor nation, as poor as they, and cannot give charity gifts like the U.S. do. Apart from wealth, they never stabbed U.S. in the back, and our motives and memories are conditioned differently to those of the Americans."
I am sorry DrG but that quote is BS of highest order, Britain was at end of the war with a much bigger population capable of production of many industrial good than at war start, they had much more factories, the country was not destroyed . They had access to various technologies from defeated countries and much bigger connection with USA way of doing things,
They also got the biggest funds from Marshall plan in favorable conditions. So much they were still paying them a couple years ago.

They were much more rich.
Dili, that the Admiralty was writing a somewhat melodramatic memo is clear, but it had well understood that not only the present situation of 1947, but much more its future evolution, were completely different than before the War. Italy turned into an economic and industrial power, UK lost its empire, had decades of economic stagnation and therefore remained obviously an important country, but comparable to France, Germany or Italy, not the world super-power it was before the War.
In 1938 the Italian GDP per capita was 3,010 USD of year 2011, the British one was 8,456 USD 2011 (Italy/UK ratio: 35.6%). In 1947 the Italian was 2,915 USD and the British 8,967 USD: it is clear and obvious that the average UK citizen was richer than an Italian one (Italy/UK ratio: 32.5%). But, honestly, war hadn't much affected both countries, in respect to per capita GDP: Italy was apparently a little poorer than before the war, UK a bit richer, but not a striking difference with the pre-war situation both for a defeated country and a victorious country. This is the evolution in the following decades:
Year: Italy; UK; Italy/UK ratio
1960: 7,067; 12,000; 58.9%
1970: 12,644; 15,715; 80.5%
1980: 20,460; 20,593; 99.4%
1990: 25,001 ; 24,002; 104.2%

Given that the aforementioned ratio had stagnated between 35% and 40% since the 1860's, the Admiralty didn't write "BS": instead it provided again a proof of its intellectual capacity, even though with a rhetoric style.

Anyway, I don't think that a secret internal memo between the two most important British institutions (the Admiralty and the Foreign Office), the pillars of the British empire and honestly some of the most admirable creations of statecraft, comparable only to the Roman and Venetian Senates, the Holy See and the Prussian/German High Command, would provide "BS" not founded on at least a minimum of serious rational analysis.

[Out of topic]Since the Nineties (and especially since the crisis of 2008), the intellectual superiority and creativity of British ruling class made the great difference which we see with Italy today: UK kept its monetary sovereignty, Italy lost it... But this is really another story, and the result of the cold (not always) war waged by Germany and France, sometimes with a bit of British help (see Libya 2011) against Italian interests.

Finally, I don't know the exact amount of US financial support to post-War UK (I am not referring to Marshall Plan alone, but also the pre-1947 programs), nor you have provided it, but the mere fact that UK was still paying for it a few years ago, as you wrote, is not exactly a great positive example. As I wrote, 89.4% of the support provided to Italy was not to be repaid: it was a gift of the USA to its new ally, and to a country that spent most of its history with strategic aims which were not in conflict with the American ones.
Well Britain had decades of stagnation because of its own political choices not because of being poor or because of war. They did not lacked resources from financial capital to human capital when war ended. They were not poor. They could have dominated post war Europe.

Paying the debt still some many decades after is usually a very generous offer. So we have a very different outlook on that.

P.S: thanks for the information you provide in this thread.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#37

Post by Dili » 08 Aug 2019, 16:04

For me the most interesting is the car/truck production decrease, i can't explain that, was the bottleneck engine block materials?
industrial difficulties to change from civilian cars to trucks?

i suppose in another hand that the vehicles got heavier since the industry started to output more trucks at expense of civilian vehicles albeit this is a supposition. This in itself also requires a production increase of more powerful engines.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#38

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 17:37

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 16:04
For me the most interesting is the car/truck production decrease, i can't explain that, was the bottleneck engine block materials?
industrial difficulties to change from civilian cars to trucks?
i suppose in another hand that the vehicles got heavier since the industry started to output more trucks at expense of civilian vehicles albeit this is a supposition. This in itself also requires a production increase of more powerful engines.
I see we cannot agree on the matter of post-war UK, now let's return on topic.

I don't remember having read a full explanation of the decrease in motor-vehicles production, but in general I agree with your opinion. Therefore, I guess it was due to two reasons:
- more focus on trucks and armored vehicles (tanks, armored cars, etc.) instead of normal automobiles;
- bottlenecks due to the lack of special alloys, usually for engines.

It should be noted, anyway, that the Italian Army had already planned, since 1925 (Zamagni, p. 165), that it would have heavily relied on requisitioned civilian trucks, at least at the beginning of the war. In order to achieve this aim, already before the war most of the trucks produced in Italy for civilian use were standardized according to the requests of the Army and practically were undistinguishable from the ones bought directly by it.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#39

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 17:46

The aluminum output remained fairly high throughout the war, and it requires a lot of energy to produce, presumably it was located near Hydroelectric plants or some how allocated the resources necessary to continue more or less apace?

I had read previously that Hydroelectric power output increased during the war, but how was this undertaken, if known, and what % did it represent in the grand scheme of things, what % of industry ran on it ?

Presumably the dramatic increase in Rolling Stock production, was to elevate the bottle neck caused by a shortage of it to move the resources into Italy that were lacking ?

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#40

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 17:56

Some messages ago, somebody asked me what did the Italian government do in order to achieve a higher level of production before the War. I have just re-discovered this table in Rolf Petri's "Storia economica d'Italia". The three columns must be read as follows:
- I: planned percentage of self sufficiency in 1941;
- II: percentage increase of the datum of 1941 with respect to 1936;
- III: actual production in 1941 as a percentage of the planned one.

Therefore, if in column III you see a number above 100, it means that the actual increase was higher than planned. Yet, it is important to see also column I: very often, even if (or even though) planned production had been reached, it would have covered only a small percentage of the needed amounts. And usually this problem was striking with regards to natural raw materials which could not be substituted by other ones, like metals for special alloys.
If you multiply column I and column III you get the actual needs covered in 1941, for example for "solid fuels" (combustibili solidi, i.e. coal) this percentage was: 33% x 63% = 0.33 x 0.63 = 20.79%.
Petri.jpg
Note: I am sorry, but I can't understand why it gets rotated.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#41

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 18:12

WoW, So you mean they had ~80% of the coal they needed, or just 20%, just so were clear ?

This is the first time I have seen natural gas listed as an energy source

Energia Elettrica, is all electric generation not just Hydro presumably

The Above Figures for Vehicles, do not count AFV's ? or do they ?

Is the Planed Figure, the actual needed figure or a "wanted" one that had built into it an increase in need intended to facilitate an increase in production capacity ?

Oil from Coal, that's also a new one for me, I have not seen that before
Last edited by Brady on 08 Aug 2019, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.

Dili
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#42

Post by Dili » 08 Aug 2019, 18:24

It is 63% of 33% value they were expecting to cover so it is indeed 20.79%

DrG if we click the image it turns okay.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#43

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 18:38

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 17:46
The aluminum output remained fairly high throughout the war, and it requires a lot of energy to produce, presumably it was located near Hydroelectric plants or some how allocated the resources necessary to continue more or less apace?
Aluminum was produced mostly in North-Eastern Italy, the area least exposed to enemy bombings and very close to some of the most important hydroelectric plants. Moreover, one of the largest producers of aluminum, Montecatini, also owned hydroelectric plants, so probably it gave a priority to its own factories.
I had read previously that Hydroelectric power output increased during the war, but how was this undertaken, if known, and what % did it represent in the grand scheme of things, what % of industry ran on it ?
New hydroelectric plants, whose long and complex construction usually had started before the war, were the reason for this increase. I have never read any source explaining in detail how much they were important for industry (outside its obvious relevance for the extraction of aluminum from bauxite and leucite), but this table from the usual book by Petri provides a general summary, although based upon a series of estimates subject to very large error, of the energy provided by the different sources available (please note that the "100%s" in the first column of the "Variazioni percentuali" = "percentage changes" are a typo):
Petri2.jpg
The lines about "Importazione di combustibili" = "Import of fuels" take into account both coal and oil products, i.e. it covers all the Italian energetic imports and thus shows the degree of dependency on foreign sources.
Presumably the dramatic increase in Rolling Stock production, was to elevate the bottle neck caused by a shortage of it to move the resources into Italy that were lacking ?
I have no specific information about this aspect, but I guess that the heavy strain imposed upon both the German and Italian railways by the transport of coal and many other bulk loads usually moved by merchant ships was the main drive about this increase. If you add also the German needs for the Russian front, you get the full picture.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#44

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 18:41

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 18:24
It is 63% of 33% value they were expecting to cover so it is indeed 20.79%

DrG if we click the image it turns okay.
Thanks, Dili.
In other words, it was expected to cover 33% of the needs in 1941, but since only 63% of the target was attained, therefore only 20.79% of the needs were covered actually.

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#45

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 18:45

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 18:12
This is the first time I have seen natural gas listed as an energy source
For example, it played an important role for the survival of the civilian population of Milan in the winter of 1944-45, thanks to the new natural gas sources discovered in 1943 near Lodi.
Energia Elettrica, is all electric generation not just Hydro presumably
AFAIK, yes.
The Above Figures for Vehicles, do not count AFV's ? or do they ?
They are not counted.
Is the Planed Figure, the actual needed figure or a "wanted" one that had built into it an increase in need intended to facilitate an increase in production capacity ?
The amount required to meet the needs of the planned capacity in 1941.
Oil from Coal, that's also a new one for me, I have not seen that before
It is the well known synthetic oil obtained by the Fischer-Tropsch hydrogenation process, Germany made a very extensive use of this source of liquid fuel.

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