Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
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Brady
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#46

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 18:56

DrG wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 18:41
Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 18:24
It is 63% of 33% value they were expecting to cover so it is indeed 20.79%

DrG if we click the image it turns okay.
Thanks, Dili.
In other words, it was expected to cover 33% of the needs in 1941, but since only 63% of the target was attained, therefore only 20.79% of the needs were covered actually.
From a previous Post by you: Kuder, "Italia e Svizzera nella Seconda guerra mondiale", Italy imported 41 million tons of coal (all types), almost all (more than 95%, but after the Italian entry into war it was almost 100%) from Germany, between 1940 and 1943, of which the following percentages passed through Swiss railways: 1940 38.2%, 1941 50.3%, 1942 47.4%, 1943 53.6%. In the same timespan, the Italian production was of about 17 million tons.

So if 17Million tons was aprox 20%, they needed aprox 85 million tons, or about 2 million tons a month for the approximately 40 months of the war ?

Dili
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#47

Post by Dili » 08 Aug 2019, 19:05

There was also oil from asphalt/bitumen mines from Ragusa(Sicily) and Pescara but were very small quantities.

One information i never found out was how many oil Albanian fields sent to Italy and how the war against Greece disrupted that.

Terni NE of Roma had armament factories because of ease to get electric power from local rivers.


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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#48

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 19:44

"For example, it played an important role for the survival of the civilian population of Milan in the winter of 1944-45, thanks to the new natural gas sources discovered in 1943 near Lodi."

The development of new sources of resources is not fully understood by me, it seams this happened, Albanian Oil production was increased, Greek Mineral resources were developed, apparently natural gas output was also increased, but why I wonder was Albania Coal not pursued, they knew it was there before the war

Was Natural gas used by Industry ?

Also were, or at least I am, summing that most if not all the resource needs were looking at were for the Military (industry) and not for Civilian needs, but Coal, especially a large chunk of the Italian sourced Coal must of been used by the civilian population ?

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#49

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 19:49

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 19:05
There was also oil from asphalt/bitumen mines from Ragusa(Sicily) and Pescara but were very small quantities.

One information i never found out was how many oil Albanian fields sent to Italy and how the war against Greece disrupted that.

Terni NE of Roma had armament factories because of ease to get electric power from local rivers.
From page one (pugsville)

the 1939/40 League of nations statistical yearbook gives oil production for Abania

1934 - 2,000 tons
1935 - 12,000 tons
1936 - 48,000 tons
1937 - 88,000 tons
1938 - 127,000 tons
1939 - 208,000 tons

Brady
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#50

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 20:13

"since the autumn of 1941 German technical help was provided to the Regia Marina for the recovery of 200,000 t of oil sludge from the bottoms of oil bunkers (a chemical process that required some consumption of fuel, in turn)."

Was this the actual amount that was rendered usable, presumably it was lower ? And that what ever the amount, it was not counted as an import ?

………..

Germany never delivered the agreed 12,000,000 t per year, even though it came close to this figure until 1943.

Was this due to the fore mentioned bottleneck created by a Rolling stock Shortage, or because the Coal was simply not to be had, that is there was will to send it but not the means ?

………………

" Italian Army had already planned, since 1925 (Zamagni, p. 165), that it would have heavily relied on requisitioned civilian trucks, at least at the beginning of the war. "

Any idea how much of an influx were looking at hear ?

…………..

I keep coming back to the issue of "capacity" , that the rail net work could only move so much of anything and that the mention of increased troop movements seamed to impact the Movement of coal from Germany, and this again suggests that more could of been had if not for the lack of capacity on the rail networks and the importance of securing the swiss "connection", but also what of Romanian Oil, was this also a factor, rail capacity, or were they taking a different rout and this was not as big an issue for the oil as it was the coal, certainly the option to move at least some of the oil by sea was available for some of the time were looking at so perhaps not for the oil ?

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#51

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 22:48

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 18:56
From a previous Post by you: Kuder, "Italia e Svizzera nella Seconda guerra mondiale", Italy imported 41 million tons of coal (all types), almost all (more than 95%, but after the Italian entry into war it was almost 100%) from Germany, between 1940 and 1943, of which the following percentages passed through Swiss railways: 1940 38.2%, 1941 50.3%, 1942 47.4%, 1943 53.6%. In the same timespan, the Italian production was of about 17 million tons.
So if 17Million tons was aprox 20%, they needed aprox 85 million tons, or about 2 million tons a month for the approximately 40 months of the war ?
Yes, but mixing different types of coal, with very different calorific energy (I wrote earlier the ratios of Italian types of coal with German anthracite), is quite a complex matter.

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#52

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 22:54

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 19:05
There was also oil from asphalt/bitumen mines from Ragusa(Sicily) and Pescara but were very small quantities.

One information i never found out was how many oil Albanian fields sent to Italy and how the war against Greece disrupted that.

Terni NE of Roma had armament factories because of ease to get electric power from local rivers.
Every source of energy is included in Petri's table, included the ones that you mention.

These were the amounts of oil, in metric tons, of Italy and Albania in 1939-1943:
year: Italy; Albania
1939: 12,045; 141,220
1940: 11,167; 151,490
1941: 11,692; 148,630
1942: 13,399; 163,800
1943: 11,187; 195,750
Total: 59,490; 800,890

Italian oil fields had been exploited for some years and were close to their exhaustion.

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#53

Post by DrG » 08 Aug 2019, 23:04

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 20:13
"since the autumn of 1941 German technical help was provided to the Regia Marina for the recovery of 200,000 t of oil sludge from the bottoms of oil bunkers (a chemical process that required some consumption of fuel, in turn)."
Was this the actual amount that was rendered usable, presumably it was lower ? And that what ever the amount, it was not counted as an import ?
This is the input, the output was much lower, but no data are available. Anyway, in Raspin's and Sadkovich's books there are the data about the Regia Marina's stocks during the war.
"Germany never delivered the agreed 12,000,000 t per year, even though it came close to this figure until 1943."
Was this due to the fore mentioned bottleneck created by a Rolling stock Shortage, or because the Coal was simply not to be had, that is there was will to send it but not the means ?
I don't know, but usually it is blamed on German bad will and blackmail.
" Italian Army had already planned, since 1925 (Zamagni, p. 168), that it would have heavily relied on requisitioned civilian trucks, at least at the beginning of the war."
Any idea how much of an influx were looking at hear ?
I had wrote the wrong page, it's 168. Returning to your question, in 1939 there were 90,000 civilian trucks in Italy, which were barely sufficient for the peacetime needs, I don't know the exact amount requisitioned, but I guess it was limited.
I keep coming back to the issue of "capacity" , that the rail net work could only move so much of anything and that the mention of increased troop movements seamed to impact the Movement of coal from Germany, and this again suggests that more could of been had if not for the lack of capacity on the rail networks and the importance of securing the swiss "connection", but also what of Romanian Oil, was this also a factor, rail capacity, or were they taking a different rout and this was not as big an issue for the oil as it was the coal, certainly the option to move at least some of the oil by sea was available for some of the time were looking at so perhaps not for the oil ?
Romanian oil came from the East and therefore saturated different rail lines than coal, coming from the North. Yet, locomotives were anyway a possible bottleneck too. Raspin mentions the idea of building 2,000 tanker trucks in order to diversify the transport of Romanian oil to Italy, but it's unclear if this proposal was ever put into practice (I have never read anymore about it and I assume it remained a mere idea, but it gives an impression of a lack of transport capacity by railways alone). Anyway, as German imports of oil from Romania rose, Italian ones shrunk and thus solved this part of the problem, if we can say it...

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#54

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 23:11

DrG wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 22:54
Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 19:05
There was also oil from asphalt/bitumen mines from Ragusa(Sicily) and Pescara but were very small quantities.

One information i never found out was how many oil Albanian fields sent to Italy and how the war against Greece disrupted that.

Terni NE of Roma had armament factories because of ease to get electric power from local rivers.
Every source of energy is included in Petri's table, included the ones that you mention.

These were the amounts of oil, in metric tons, of Italy and Albania in 1939-1943:
year: Italy; Albania
1939: 12,045; 141,220
1940: 11,167; 151,490
1941: 11,692; 148,630
1942: 13,399; 163,800
1943: 11,187; 195,750
Total: 59,490; 800,890

Italian oil fields had been exploited for some years and were close to their exhaustion.
Hmmm, so these figures are in ?

the 1939/40 League of nations statistical yearbook gives oil production for Albania

1934 - 2,000 tons
1935 - 12,000 tons
1936 - 48,000 tons
1937 - 88,000 tons
1938 - 127,000 tons
1939 - 208,000 tons

I might be doing the math wrong, but the numbers don't add up when there converted ? (metric ton to standard ton)

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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#55

Post by Dili » 08 Aug 2019, 23:35

I have this data for Bari refinery 01 June 1940:

58027t of crude oil at 1 June 1940
3647t fuel oil
>20000t of other fuels
1000t stock of coal to service merchants is usually held at port.

Refinery Depots could hold up to 150000t

DrG do you know how much unprocessed oil the other Italian refineries had by war start for Italy?

Brady
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#56

Post by Brady » 08 Aug 2019, 23:54

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 23:35
I have this data for Bari refinery 01 June 1940:

58027t of crude oil at 1 June 1940
3647t fuel oil
>20000t of other fuels
1000t stock of coal to service merchants is usually held at port.

Refinery Depots could hold up to 150000t

DrG do you know how much unprocessed oil the other Italian refineries had by war start for Italy?
Suggesting that some (at least) of the tankers were using coal

And or Some of the Bulk cargo ships carrying Fuel in barrels were

Do we have any references for fuel shipments in barrels or the production of barrels ?

……………………….

The More we examine the rail net works, the more I am curious about the shipment of Fuel for the German forces in the theater, presumably Greece/Grete was on a different logistics link, different rail network and closer to Romania so likely not a problem ? But What of the LW in Sicily for instance...

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#57

Post by DrG » 09 Aug 2019, 00:29

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 23:11
Hmmm, so these figures are in ?
the 1939/40 League of nations statistical yearbook gives oil production for Albania
1934 - 2,000 tons
1935 - 12,000 tons
1936 - 48,000 tons
1937 - 88,000 tons
1938 - 127,000 tons
1939 - 208,000 tons
I might be doing the math wrong, but the numbers don't add up when there converted ? (metric ton to standard ton)
My source for Italian and Albanian oil production is Squarzoli, "Le ricerche di petrolio in Italia", usually a reliable source, but I cannot say if it's better or not than the League of Nations. The large discrepancy for 1939 is not explainable.

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#58

Post by DrG » 09 Aug 2019, 00:30

Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 23:35
I have this data for Bari refinery 01 June 1940:

58027t of crude oil at 1 June 1940
3647t fuel oil
>20000t of other fuels
1000t stock of coal to service merchants is usually held at port.

Refinery Depots could hold up to 150000t

DrG do you know how much unprocessed oil the other Italian refineries had by war start for Italy?
Interesting, thank you. Where have you got these data, please?
Anyway, I have not found any detail about stocks in refineries at the start of the war.

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DrG
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#59

Post by DrG » 09 Aug 2019, 00:32

Brady wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 23:54
Suggesting that some (at least) of the tankers were using coal
And or Some of the Bulk cargo ships carrying Fuel in barrels were
Do we have any references for fuel shipments in barrels or the production of barrels ?
There is no reason to think that the coal held there was for tankers (Dili's post talks about generic merchant ships), and I have never read of coal-fired tankers (quite a nonsense, if you think about it).
I have no data about barrels.

Dili
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Re: Italian Stratigic Resources and Industry

#60

Post by Dili » 09 Aug 2019, 01:00

DrG wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 00:30
Dili wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 23:35
I have this data for Bari refinery 01 June 1940:

58027t of crude oil at 1 June 1940
3647t fuel oil
>20000t of other fuels
1000t stock of coal to service merchants is usually held at port.

Refinery Depots could hold up to 150000t

DrG do you know how much unprocessed oil the other Italian refineries had by war start for Italy?
Interesting, thank you. Where have you got these data, please?
Anyway, I have not found any detail about stocks in refineries at the start of the war.
Got it here : http://fischer-tropsch.org/Tom%20Reels/ ... 64_toc.htm

A5464-0352-0382 Item 3A

Report on visit to southern Italy by Mr. E. A. Berthoud – Ministry of fuel and power. J. I. C. (43)465. November 13, 1943. 31 pages.

On page 15

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