Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
Frollo
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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#31

Post by Frollo » 27 Jan 2022, 16:33

Alpini Arditi wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 00:12
Speaking of railroad carriages, I've read that the Italian Navy had twelve armoured trains ready for use in 1940, two being used in the Battle of the Alps. One was equipped with 120mm guns, and the other with 152mm guns. They supported Italian troops during the assault on Menton.
Indeed. One was hit by French gunfire and lost eight men including its commander, Lieutenant Giovanni Ingrao, one of the first (posthumous) MOVM of World War II. Others shelled and damaged the French forts of Cap Martin. They also participated in the reaction to the French naval bombardment of Genoa.

In the summer of 1943 eight of these trains were moved to Sicily. One (T.A. 76/2/T) countered the American landings in Licata (where it was described as being the main obstacle for the landing force) until it was destroyed by American naval gunfire. The others did little or nothing, owing to Allied control of the skies rendering their use almost impossible, and were blown up by their crews during the retreat.

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AnchorSteam
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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#32

Post by AnchorSteam » 27 Jan 2022, 20:00

Alpini Arditi wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 00:12
Speaking of railroad carriages, I've read that the Italian Navy had twelve armoured trains ready for use in 1940, two being used in the Battle of the Alps. One was equipped with 120mm guns, and the other with 152mm guns. They supported Italian troops during the assault on Menton.
Wow, thanks for sharing that!
I had ignored the idea of smaller guns for RR units, and I'm afraid I might know why;
Germany had 15cm and 17cm RR guns but discontinued them {supposedly} because they offered very little improvement over the performance of normal field artillery. They only made six of the 17cm RR guns, for example.

However, I forgot a few things-
1) the excellent strategic mobility of RR guns. Yes, tactically they are limited to tracks and sidings, but on the national defense level they had no peers. The Railraods of Italy run primarily along the coast, and these weapons have mobility based on coal instead of petroleum.

2) Old Naval guns still had a high velocity and could serve as long-range artillery for as long as stocks of H.E. ammo lasted. For 120mm and below their primary purpose was defend against Torpedo Boats and Destroyers, so I doubt that a very high percentage of rounds made for them were armor-piercing types.
A.P. rounds still have their uses against Bunkers and other hard targets, or as traiing rounds if there is nothing else.

3) I also forgot about Flak Trains. The pic you posted appears to be a row of 76mm guns (?) and if they are indeed going into action on that particular date, they are probably shooting at aircraft.
And even if Bi-Planes were the threat they were designed to fight, who cares? Throw enough steel into the air and eventually the Fly-Boys are going to start to panic.


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AnchorSteam
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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#33

Post by AnchorSteam » 27 Jan 2022, 20:26

Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
You are thinking of Pantelleria.

In 1943 the coastal batteries on that island were eight, for a combined twelve 152 mm guns, thirteen 120 mm guns, twelve 90 mm guns (but it is not certain whether all of the latter had actually been installed).
Good question. Seeing how the island fell to a Paratroops assault, the 90mm AA guns were probabaly missing.
Otherwise it would have been a slaughter, for the Paras.
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
Coastal batteries in the Dahlak Islands ---
This is why I try to avoid spending too much time in the "What If?" section; you tend to find that the people who were there at the time already had those ideas, plus some you never thought of!

But it is telling that no guns larger than 152mm (6") were fitted anywhere there. They could easily have gone a few better, were they anticipating that the RN would never deploy anything larger than a WW1 light cruiser there?

(this matters because closing the Red Sea was probably the most serious aspect of that whole theater of operations. Neutral USA could not allow its Merchant ships to pass through that area as long as it could be called a "combat zone", and the presence of a few long-range guns on the outer islands could keep it that way even after Massawa fell)
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
The coastal defense of Kismayo consisted of two 120/45 and four 76/40 mm batteries, partly located on two islands.
So, not even enough to scare off a Destroyer Captain looking to get another ribbon.

This went pretty far from Italy in 1943, but we have verified that there were a lot of big guns available for the defense of Italy itself .... but; did they have radar?
Were they manned by skilled crews?
Did they have radar?
And just as importantly; did Italy have the mines in place to hold the Allies off long enough for the guns to do their job?

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Alpini Arditi
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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#34

Post by Alpini Arditi » 27 Jan 2022, 22:09

And just as importantly; did Italy have the mines in place to hold the Allies off long enough for the guns to do their job?
Not sure about sea mines, but the beaches around Gela in Sicily were land mined in 1943, prior to the Allied invasion, and they and the coastal guns definitely gave the Anglo-Americans some trouble; the Axis air forces then arrived, and sank the USS Maddox. Just out of interest, here's some information on Italian sea mines which sank several Allied vessels:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMIT_M ... erchantmen.

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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#35

Post by jwsleser » 28 Jan 2022, 00:12

AnchorSteam wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 20:26
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
You are thinking of Pantelleria.

In 1943 the coastal batteries on that island were eight, for a combined twelve 152 mm guns, thirteen 120 mm guns, twelve 90 mm guns (but it is not certain whether all of the latter had actually been installed).
Good question. Seeing how the island fell to a Paratroops assault, the 90mm AA guns were probabaly missing.
Otherwise it would have been a slaughter, for the Paras.
Pantelleria was bombed into submission. There was an amphibous landing force, but no paratroopers.

I am wondering if you are thinking of Leros?

Pista! Jeff
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AnchorSteam
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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#36

Post by AnchorSteam » 28 Jan 2022, 03:03

jwsleser wrote:
28 Jan 2022, 00:12
I am wondering if you are thinking of Leros?

Pista! Jeff
Leros ... Lampedusa ... Linosa.... there are a million of em' out there, and way too many for me to keep trying to recall from memory.

My bad.

But okay, we know that there were some serious defenses in place. I guess the OP Question is really; how much more powerful would they have had to be called "effective"?

IIRC, the only Allied landings that were thrown back into the sea in WW2 were Dieppe in 1942 and the Crimea in 1943.

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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#37

Post by AnchorSteam » 28 Jan 2022, 03:14

Alpini Arditi wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 22:09
And just as importantly; did Italy have the mines in place to hold the Allies off long enough for the guns to do their job?
Not sure about sea mines, but the beaches around Gela in Sicily were land mined in 1943, prior to the Allied invasion, and they and the coastal guns definitely gave the Anglo-Americans some trouble; the Axis air forces then arrived, and sank the USS Maddox. Just out of interest, here's some information on Italian sea mines which sank several Allied vessels:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMIT_M ... erchantmen.
Thanks! Wow, almost 55,000 mines, and that wasn't enough for them? Even a special type made for Tropical waters, that shows that they were thinking of closing the Red Sea, but it's a pity the anchor cables weren't long eough to deal with the deep trench running down the middle...

Great source, i recommend anyone with an interest have a look at that.

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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#38

Post by Frollo » 28 Jan 2022, 10:10

AnchorSteam wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 20:26
But it is telling that no guns larger than 152mm (6") were fitted anywhere there. They could easily have gone a few better, were they anticipating that the RN would never deploy anything larger than a WW1 light cruiser there?

(this matters because closing the Red Sea was probably the most serious aspect of that whole theater of operations. Neutral USA could not allow its Merchant ships to pass through that area as long as it could be called a "combat zone", and the presence of a few long-range guns on the outer islands could keep it that way even after Massawa fell)
My impression is that they knew that AOI was doomed in case of a prolonged war with the British empire, and were more interested in not squandering valuable equipment there than in strenghtening their forces in that theatre. I find quite telling that all vessels and equipment deployed to East Africa were rather obsolete - pretty much the only modern vessels were the submarines and Eritrea, while the destroyers dated back to the mid-1920s, the MAS boats were literal World War I relics that only floated through the grace of God and the sheer will of their crews (and they still managed to torpedo a cruiser!)... Modern ships, and equipment, remained in the Mediterranean.
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
This went pretty far from Italy in 1943, but we have verified that there were a lot of big guns available for the defense of Italy itself .... but; did they have radar?
Don't know for sure, but my money is on no, considering the limited number of radars produced in Italy in 1940-1943.
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
Were they manned by skilled crews?
The crews of the coastal batteries in Italy were usually composed of MILMART personnel, a branch of the MVSN tasked with manning coastal artillery. Locally recruited, and as far as I know, usually drawn from men considered too young or too old or otherwise unfit for frontline service, a bit like the coastal divisions. Not sure about their skill, but they weren't probably the best troops around. The chaotic collapse of the Augusta-Syracuse naval fortress area was started by MILMART personnel deserting en masse after some of the batteries had been taken out by commandos and rumors spread about captured Blackshirts being executed on the spot. The batteries on Leros, Corfu/Cephalonia (German landings post 8 September) and the ones in Tobruk (operation Agreement) seem to have had some success in sinking landing craft and supporting vessels, but I think these were manned by proper Army or Navy personnel.
Frollo wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 16:26
And just as importantly; did Italy have the mines in place to hold the Allies off long enough for the guns to do their job?
Land mines I do not know, naval mines aplenty. In the first half of 1943 anti-landing minefields were laid in front of most places considered likely as landing areas for the enemy. I should have a map in one of the USMM books...

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Re: Could The Italians Have Organised An Effective Defense Against The Allies On Mainland Italy in 1943?

#39

Post by Frollo » 28 Jan 2022, 10:12

AnchorSteam wrote:
28 Jan 2022, 03:03
IIRC, the only Allied landings that were thrown back into the sea in WW2 were Dieppe in 1942 and the Crimea in 1943.
"Agreement" in Tobruk, too. A smaller-scale Dieppe.

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