Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

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Sid Guttridge
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Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 21 Jun 2017 11:03

Hi Guys,

Clearly, most of Germany's war aims failed in WWII, but were there some residual successes?

I can think of at least one contender.

Although Nazi Germany did not defeat Communism, (indeed in defeat it introduced Communism to new areas of Eastern Europe), it did oblige the USSR to disband the Comintern early in 1943, apparently in order for Moscow to reassure its allies.

Did the disbandment of the Comintern really lift some of the threat to the non-Communist world, or was it more a matter of appearance than substance?

If substance, I would suggest that the disbandment of the Comintern represents a successful German achievement that had long term ramifications.

What do you reckon?

Cheers,

Sid.

steevh
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby steevh » 21 Jun 2017 20:08

They eventually achieved a united Europe under German domination.

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Gorque
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby Gorque » 22 Jun 2017 13:36

Der Käfer.

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doogal
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby doogal » 24 Jun 2017 22:25

steevh wrote = They eventually achieved a united Europe under German domination.


I think that the a united Europe under German dominion can be more closely matched to the war aims of Imperial Germany.
But I'm assuming this was a tongue in cheek response ... :P


The general aim of the war is security for the German Reich in west and east for all imaginable time. For this purpose France must be so weakened as to make her revival as a great power impossible for all time. Russia must be thrust back as far as possible from Germany's eastern frontier and her domination over the non-Russian vassal peoples broken.

France. The military to decide whether we should demand cession of Belfort and western slopes of the Vosges, razing of fortresses and cession of coastal strip from Dunkirk to Boulogne.
The ore-field of Briey, which is necessary for the supply of ore for our industry, to be ceded in any case. Further, a war indemnity, to be paid in instalments; it must be high enough to prevent France from spending any considerable sums on armaments in the next 15-20 years.
Furthermore: a commercial treaty which makes France economically dependent on Germany, secures the French market for our exports and makes it possible to exclude British commerce from France. This treaty must secure for us financial and industrial freedom of movement in France in such fashion that German enterprises can no longer receive different treatment from French.
Belgium. Liége and Verviers to be attached to Prussia, a frontier strip of the province of Luxemburg to Luxemburg.
Question whether Antwerp, with a corridor to Liége, should also be annexed remains open.
At any rate Belgium, even it allowed to continue to exist as a state, must be reduced to a vassal state, must allow us to occupy any militarily important ports, must place her coast at our disposal in military respects, must become economically a German province. Given such a solution, which offers the advantages of annexation without its inescapable domestic political disadvantages, French Flanders with Dunkirk, Calais and Boulogne, where most of the population is Flemish, can without danger be attached to this unaltered Belgium. The competent quarters will have to judge the military value of this position against England.
Luxemburg. Will become a German federal state and will receive a strip of the present Belgian province of Luxemburg and perhaps the corner of Longwy.
We must create a central European economic association through common customs treaties, to include France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Austria-Hungary, Poland "sic", and perhaps Italy, Sweden and Norway. This association will not have any common constitutional supreme authority and all its members will be normally equal, but in practice will be under German leadership and must stabilise Germany's economic dominance over Mitteleuropa.
The question of colonial acquisitions, where the first aim is the creation of a continuous Central African colonial empire, will be considered later, as will that of the aims to be realised vis-à-vis Russia.
A short provisional formula suitable for a possible preliminary peace to be found for a basis for the economic agreements to be concluded with France and Belgium.
Holland. It will have to be considered by what means and methods Holland can be brought into closer relationship with the German Empire.
In view of the Dutch character, this closer relationship must leave them free of any feeling of compulsion, must alter nothing in the Dutch way of life, and must also subject them to no new military obligations. Holland, then, must be left independent in externals, but be made internally dependent on us. Possibly one might consider an offensive and defensive alliance, to cover the colonies; in any case a close customs association, perhaps the cession of Antwerp to Holland in return for the right to keep a German garrison in the fortress of Antwerp and at the mouth of the Scheldt.

From Fritz Fischer, Germany's Aims in the First World War, W.W. Norton & Company, Inc., 1967. Reprinted by permission.


quite frankly while Nazi Germany may have forced the disbandment of the comintern it also handed the majority of eastern and central Europe to the Soviet communists and or other Soviet backed regimes, They had planned to put Europe into darkness and they managed that quite well in central and eastern Europe.....

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victor82
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby victor82 » 10 Aug 2017 03:09

There is a school of thought that the Wehrmacht achieved Hitler's war aim of destroying Soviet Bolshevism, due to the demographic catastrophe caused by Barbarossa. It just took 50 years to take effect.

Russia survived. The Soviet Empire could not: too many dead Great Russians.

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wm
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby wm » 10 Aug 2017 19:22

The destruction of Soviet Bolshevism wasn't really his real goal, from the time he wrote Mein Kampf it was Lebensraum, and Lebensraum was available only on the East - that meant Russia must have been defeated.
A subgoal was destruction of Russia - a long standing enemy of Germany, so it was two birds with one stone.
Destruction of Soviet Bolshevism wasn't really a worthy goal, Nazi Germany wasn't threatened by Soviet Bolshevism.

So Germany failed to acquire Lebensraum (this include annexation of Austria and Sudetenland, and recovery territories lost to France, Poland and Lithuania).
But the subgoal - the defeat of Russia has been achieved. Russia today is not a serious political force, it's a country without allies and with lots of potential, well connected enemies. And this is not going to change.

Another goal was elimination of the French danger, this was achieved although differently than planned.
Another was friendship with Britain - more or less achieved.
The united Europe under German dominion is another major achievement, although Hitler certainly would like more domination than Germany has actually today.

But his really main goal was creating a German superpower - sufficiently strong to be absolutely safe, and this was achieved.
Germany is an economic superpower, and has the means to become a military superpower quickly.
So actually all he wanted was achieved: Germany is a superpower, and more or less controls Europe.
Lebensraum wasn't really worth it, Germany doesn't need it - at all.

NeoVisionist
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby NeoVisionist » 06 Oct 2017 11:33

I always questioned the concept of Lebensraum. Germany overcrowded? Maybe today with all that's been going on but back then? I know Hitler capitalised on Jewish immigration from the east as a rallying point, but was the situation at all an analogue to the current immigrant crisis, which is the lynchpin of both side's arguments today?

Jewish doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers formed Germany's strong backbone. Without them final victory was all but impossible. By his desire to strengthen Germany by eradicating Jewry, Hitler did just the opposite. Jewish immigrants from the east might have been a different story, but the key word is immigrants; like it is today.

I can see how Germany needed more land for food, definitely. Is this what was meant by lebensraum?

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Gorque
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby Gorque » 06 Oct 2017 13:00

Hi NeoVisionist:

The concept behind Lebensraum was to avoid a repeat of the food shortages that occurred during Great War.

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wm
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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby wm » 06 Oct 2017 16:56

NeoVisionist wrote:I always questioned the concept of Lebensraum. Germany overcrowded? Maybe today with all that's been going on but back then? I know Hitler capitalised on Jewish immigration from the east as a rallying point, but was the situation at all an analogue to the current immigrant crisis, which is the lynchpin of both side's arguments today?

It's not an analogue because the Jewish emigrants were relatively rich, so they weren't a burden on the economy at all.
The problem was the German Jews were rich and influential, not that they were poor.
They say there were about 600,000 Jews in Germany, and they owned about 100,000 businesses, including 50,000 stores.

Hitler's overall objective was a strong Germany - all the others: Lebensraum, anti-Semitism, wars, ethnic cleansings were means to achieve that goal.
Of course it was a goal of Weimar Republic too with the difference that Hitler based his political views on the popular at that time social Darwinism and because of that saw everything in apocalyptic terms, and the world as a dog-eat-dog place.

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Re: Which of Germany's war aims endured beyond the end of the war, if any?

Postby South » 08 Oct 2017 08:33

Good morning Sid and all,

Do factor in that after Ober-Neuse approached and the Asian dust - both atomic and regular - settled, prior to the Korean War, there were Communist governments in place from the Baltic to the Pacific.

Today, Germany leveraged this to their benefit. Berlin know how to work the Bank for International Settlements and now runs a trade (actually a financial stream) surplus with China.

Even more universal to the posed question are the the 2 opus magnum themes presented by Oswald Spengler ("Decline of the West") and General Erich von Ludendorff ("The Total War").

A 9th submarine is being built in Kiel, Holstein for an export sale to Israel. The terms of sale are probably not in trade for Jaffa orange juice. Germany's Ostpolitik does not / will not ... I do not know the correct tense ... rely on Model 1891 Mauser rifles.

While I'm looking for the umlatt key on this new-fangled telegraph, the Historians Work-Relief Act of 2018 is ready for publication.

~ Bob
Virginia, USA


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