If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 03 Jan 2018 18:16

Hitler ordered to weaken the 4th army to strengthen the 2 panzer group. And it was a mistake. Zhukov said after the war, the Germans could take Moscow, but they too stretched the front of the offensive.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 03 Jan 2018 21:44

Keitel also considered the front of the offensive to Moscow too broad. Primitive dispersion of forces.

http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RR ... Keitel.pdf

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 03 Jan 2018 23:49

The appearance of Germany in 1871 made it possible to lie on a giant scale. People are forced to talk about stupid things as serious phenomena. Not only war, in other spheres of life. Deception on a global scale can be 90% coming from Germany.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 04 Jan 2018 00:03

Why did Hitler always lie

http://www.dw.com/ru/ложь-во-спасение-п ... a-19433976

Probably, there is no man in the world who would not have lied in his life. How often we say that everything is fine with us, while things do not really go well. Few people will say to himself that he is lying, because lying, deceiving, deceiving and dodging is just plain ugly.

And although we have a negative attitude towards lies and deceit, we understand that without them it would be very difficult, perhaps even impossible, in our lives.

This is reminiscent of Volker Sommer, a German anthropologist, in his book "Praise of Lies: As in Evolution, the End Justifies Means." "If we always adhered to the truth," he writes, "our social transmission mechanism with grinding and would stop abruptly, for truth is often like sand in it, while the lie lubricates it like oil." It allows us to smoothly move in interaction with each other every day. "

Lying as the driving force of development

Moreover, says Volker Sommer, lies are part of our intellectual abilities and culture. The scientist considers the phenomenon of lies and deception in terms of evolutionary anthropology.

His main thesis is: the rivalry between those who wanted to deceive and those who sought to expose the lie, was the driving force in the development of mankind. In the course of evolution, the intellect developed because the primates living in groups - and the person belongs to them, from the point of view of biology - are also constantly inventing new ways to deceive the fellow tribesman, and these tricks contributed to the development of more and more perfect "lie detectors" in the brain .

Volker Sommer emphasizes that the most important factor contributing to the development of mental abilities in a person was and is his social essence, in other words, his ability and need to live in a community with other people.

Grindstone for Intelligence

The anthropologist refers to data showing that those species of primates that live in small communities have less gray matter than those living in larger groups. But members of the same group are competitors - for food, partners for reproduction, convenient and safe places to stay overnight. In such situations, more individuals leave behind themselves those individuals who manage to fully enjoy the benefits of living in the community, while minimizing the negative aspects of existence in the group with relatives. This helps the ability to recognize the motivation of others, manipulate them and not become the victim of manipulation.

Falsity, summarizes Volker Sommer, is an integral part of our psyche, which has evolved in the process of evolution. Daily use of methods of deception and its exposure enriched our intellect. So the lie became a kind of "grindstone" that sharpened our mind.

From safe to high art

Lies are omnipresent and accompanies us on a daily basis. Resisting her, we invent, invent, create. How many efforts, structures, methods in our lives are created in order to resist deceit! From police to antivirus programs, from key to safe and surveillance cameras ... Volker Sommer asserts: without deception, "personal trainer of our intellect," our life would be dull to death.

Of course, we suffer from deceit, but he also gives us a lot of what amuses and amuses us, supports us with tension, makes us laugh and cry: starting with criminal novels and love stories, fairy tales and movies to the fine arts, music, theatrical plays.

Col_Kurtz_
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Col_Kurtz_ » 17 Jan 2018 13:30

I would tell him, that the Americans will nuke Berlin as soon as August 1945 and nuke every major German cities every 2 weeks, no matter what so it's time to be nice and retreat behind the pre-war borders & sign peace treaties.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 18 Jan 2018 05:41

Col_Kurtz_ wrote:I would tell him, that the Americans will nuke Berlin as soon as August 1945 and nuke every major German cities every 2 weeks, no matter what so it's time to be nice and retreat behind the pre-war borders & sign peace treaties.
like he is really going to care.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 29 Jan 2018 14:36

in practice nothing depended on generals. Front line at the end of September 1944. Only by the efforts of Hitler Army Group "North" did not retreat to East Prussia. Everything is simple and clear.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 29 Jan 2018 21:40

An excerpt from an article about Stalin, relevant and about the Second World War. People love serious discussion, entirely plunging in the world of figures, statistics, documents. Deliveries of Lend-Lease. Hitler was wrong this is not serious. Depreciates interest in many aspects of the war.

https://gazetaby.com/cont/art.php?sn_ni ... yandex.com

In our culture very much love seriousness and hate suffering laughter. It is possible to damn Stalin, Beria, Khrushchev – but that grieving, becoming angry, scowling, growing dark. And here to mock at them – no-no. Because the most angry and accusatory seriousness doesn't break sacrality. Stalin with its eternal at "serious condemnation" remain same stately. And laughter reduces them from a pedestal. It for our stalinodrocher – the most terrible.

В нашей культуре очень любят серьёз и терпеть ненавидят смех. Можно проклинать Сталина, Берию, Хрущева – но чтобы тоскуя, сердясь, насупясь, мрачнея. А вот осмеять их – ни-ни. Потому что самый гневный и обличительный серьёз не нарушает сакральности. Сталин с его присными при «серьезном осуждении» остаются такими же величавыми. А смех низводит их с пьедестала. Это для наших сталинодрочеров – самое страшное.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 30 Jan 2018 12:24

jesk wrote:Keitel also considered the front of the offensive to Moscow too broad. Primitive dispersion of forces.

http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RR ... Keitel.pdf

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One should not too much value the comments of Keitel, as Barbarossa was not his business : he was only the de facto minister of war .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Feb 2018 17:46

Keitel's comments are interesting in the context of an eyewitness of events. All war since September 1, 1939 together with Hitler.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2018 22:13

Was he present when Halder presented the daily reports about the East ?

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Feb 2018 03:23

ljadw wrote:Was he present when Halder presented the daily reports about the East ?
He was executed on October 16, 1946

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Feb 2018 03:27

The first time to the idea of betraying Hitler, I came 15 years ago. Drew attention to transfer of the 6th Panzer Army to Hungary and asked the question WTF? Why is it difficult to understand others, for me a mystery.
Leibstandarte ? Totenkopf ? Hitler Jugend ? Das Reich ?

Order of battle (31 March 1945)

At the disposal of the 6. Panzerarmee
- Kampfgruppe 356. Infanterie-Division
I. SS-Panzerkorps
- 1. SS-Panzer-Division “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler”
- 3. SS-Panzer-Division “Totenkopf” + Kampfgruppe Hungarian 2nd Armored Division
- 12. SS-Panzer-Division “Hitler Jugend”
- 232. Panzer-Division
II. SS-Panzerkorps
- 2. SS-Panzer-Division “Das Reich”
- Hungarian 1st Mountain Brigade
- 6. Panzer-Division + Hungarian 1st Cavalry Division (remnants)

Order of battle (12 April 1945)

I. SS-Panzerkorps
- Kampfgruppe Keitel
- Kampfgruppe 356. Infanterie-Division
- 1. SS-Panzer-Division “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler”
- 12. SS-Panzer-Division “Hitler Jugend”
Generalkommando Schultz
- 710. Infanterie-Division
- Kampfgruppe Oberst Staudinger
II. SS-Panzerkorps
- Kampfgruppe Oberst Folkmann
- Kampfkommandant von Bünau
- 2. SS-Panzer-Division “Das Reich”
- 3. SS-Panzer-Division “Totenkopf”
- 6. Panzer-Division
- Führer-Grenadier-Division

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 02 Feb 2018 13:25

jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:Was he present when Halder presented the daily reports about the East ?
He was executed on October 16, 1946

This is not an answer to my question : I doubt very much that Keitel (= OKW ) was present at the discussions about a OKH theatre of operations .And, if he was present, did he intervene ? And,if he intervened, did anyone attach any importance on what he said ?

Keitel had no knowledge of the war in the east, which was not his business, neither was the war in the west .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Feb 2018 16:22

ljadw wrote:
jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:Was he present when Halder presented the daily reports about the East ?
He was executed on October 16, 1946

This is not an answer to my question : I doubt very much that Keitel (= OKW ) was present at the discussions about a OKH theatre of operations .And, if he was present, did he intervene ? And,if he intervened, did anyone attach any importance on what he said ?

Keitel had no knowledge of the war in the east, which was not his business, neither was the war in the west .
But he twice resigned, Hitler rejected. Twice proposed to appoint Manstein to command the Wehrmacht. Attempts to improve Germany's position on his part were. Hitler upstairs, that says it all ...

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