Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

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Michael Kenny
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 16 Apr 2018 18:36

This is June 1944 and before the devastation. Cagny bottom LH corner. The only 'orchard' is just above it (across the break in photo)


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400 0240 (4393). La Prieure Farm _stitch CAGNY.jpg
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doogal
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby doogal » 16 Apr 2018 19:30

And do we know what was in the fields around this orchard.. (Great picture) I only ask as it would take "high corn" or some other plant of similar height to mask the height of an "88" , or provide "cover" as von Luck puts it. It would be interesting to see if the surrounding agriculture supported his account. I cant tell what kind of fields they are.

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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 16 Apr 2018 19:38

I worked out that a feature such as A is a field of corn where the outside has been harvested leaving the 'dark' block in the middle. B is also a field where the lighter L shaped strip has been cut down.

400 0240 (4393). La Prieure Farm C _stitch CAGNY.jpg
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 16 Apr 2018 19:51

The corn was never high enough to conceal a Flak 88. See this film to get an idea of the size.

http://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/510

You might be able to dig-in a Pak 88 but the Flak gun was just too big.
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doogal
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby doogal » 17 Apr 2018 13:34

So it didn't matter if there was high corn ... it was not high enough to provide the kind of cover which von Luck claimed it did ... and could not hide the silhouette that an 88 had.... It would though seem to me that this is something von Luck would know if he was being untruthful, and that he would know from tactical experience . Is it possible at 80 he was confusing one or more engagement ....

Michael Kenny
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Apr 2018 13:56

doogal wrote: Is it possible at 80 he was confusing one or more engagement ....



von Luck made the claims long before he was 80. That is a mistaken claim earlier in the thread.

Here you can hear him in the 1970s https://youtu.be/EUUHahXghI0?t=12m23s

Sean Oliver
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Sean Oliver » 17 Apr 2018 17:53

According to a local resident the flak btty was deployed along the road which runs in a NE to SW direction adjacent to an orchard along Cagny's northwest side. The local dug up expended 88 shells there. The flak were not where Michael thinks they were.
In the OB West war diary there is a mention later in July or August of a Luftwaffe battery commander who was to be awarded a decoration for ground combat.
I can't produce maps, links or references now, but I will later today.

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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Apr 2018 17:58

Sean Oliver wrote:According to a local resident the flak btty was deployed along the road which runs in a NE to SW direction adjacent to an orchard along Cagny's northwest side. The local dug up expended 88 shells there. The flak were not where Michael thinks they were.
In the OB West war diary there is a mention later in July or August of a Luftwaffe battery commander who was to be awarded a decoration for ground combat.
I can't produce maps, links or references now, but I will later today.



There were many 8.8cm Pak in the area. Of that there is no doubt. There were even 8.8cm Flak in Panzer Divisions. However von Luck clearly says it was a Luftwaffe Unit.

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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Apr 2018 18:02

This post viewtopic.php?p=2133776#p2133776

shows an 8.8cm Pak still in situ on a road on the NW side of Cagny in 1946



4130 Cagny aug 8hhh.jpg
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Sean Oliver » 18 Apr 2018 22:44

Regarding that aerial close-up:

download/file.php?id=417891&t=1

To me this looks like Flak equipment - not Pak. Those two single-axle carriages across the road are standard with many versions of 88 Flak (dual-purpose) pieces, but for 88 Pak?
Also, if they were Pak, wouldn't the gun's two split trails be longer?
There appears to be a cruciform under-carriage beneath the gun, again indicating Flak. But I'm not a German artillery expert, so I could be mistaken about all of this.

This position for the LW battery fits von Luck's narrative, and provides an excellent field of fire against the F+FY, whose route south (according to that old French 50:000 hatchure map from the IGN website) was atop an elevated ridgeline; Cagny is in a valley while those guns appear to have been on the slope and near the crest of the F+FY's ridge. This might've made the guns appear more or less "hull down" and hidden from the British tanks.

I'm still searching for that reference to the LW crew/officer, but my earlier post was wrong - it wasn't in OB West's KTB, it was in the 5.Pz-Armee Ia Anlagen files, and there are around 200 frames to check. T-313 rolls 420 + 421, which can be downloaded from sturmpanzer, I think.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 18 Apr 2018 23:38

Sean Oliver wrote:Regarding that aerial close-up:

download/file.php?id=417891&t=1

To me this looks like Flak equipment - not Pak. Those two single-axle carriages across the road are standard with many versions of 88 Flak (dual-purpose) pieces, but for 88 Pak?
Also, if they were Pak, wouldn't the gun's two split trails be longer?
There appears to be a cruciform under-carriage beneath the gun, again indicating Flak. But I'm not a German artillery expert, so I could be mistaken about all of this.


Pak 43

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/88mm ... k-gun.html


https://www.wealdfoundation.org/Collect ... -43--88-cm

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/ ... k-gun.html

Sean Oliver
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Sean Oliver » 19 Apr 2018 02:27

Seems like it could be either, but again I'm not an artillery ID expert, obviously.
If it is Pak it doesn't affect the veracity of von Luck's account. All it tells us is that there was a Pak gun on the roadside. It may have been put there days before Goodwood because it was damaged while en route somewhere else, it may have arrived after the Flak guns were removed or destroyed, it may or may not have been in action that day, etc etc
The best place to look for info would be LW archives, but I don't think anyone's checked there yet.
Anyway, none of this disproves von Luck, so unless something more solid can be produced one way or the other, he should be given the benefit of the doubt. There has not been any solid evidence produced which undermines his credibility.
In the meantime, keep looking...

Michael Kenny
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Re: Hans von Luck: reliable accounts?

Postby Michael Kenny » 19 Apr 2018 06:59

My earlier post

viewtopic.php?p=2134620#p2134620

is wrong. The light coloured area is standing crops. The darker area is harvested.

This shows the contrast clearly.

0037.jpg
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