where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

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Max Payload
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by Max Payload » 12 Jul 2019 00:06

AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
I need to say that the translation of the 4th chapter of Barbarossa you use is not accurate.
To translate the word "abstimmen", the verb "adjust" fits well, and the word "vorsichtig" or "Vorsicht" in the word "Vorsichtsmassnahmen" has the English equivalent - "careful". That is, for example, the German expression "Sei vorsichtig!" in English will be "Be careful!". "Be precautionary!" means rather "Be preventiv!" Correct me if I'm wrong.
I’m no linguist but I doubt that ‘Vorsichtsmassnahmen handelt’ could be translated as anything other than precautionary measures. And precautionary and preventative do have different meanings.
The phrase ‘müssen eindeutig dahin abgestimmt sein’ is perhaps more ambiguous but in the context, ‘must clearly indicate’ seems to be an accurate translation.

AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
Aren't you too exaggerating Hitler's fears about the reaction of the USSR / Stalin to possible leaks? Hitler could easily explain the planning of Barbarossa by the presence of a large number of Soviet divisions on the border with the Reich. There, in late 1940 and early 1941, the superiority of the USSR was overwhelming. For what purpose did the 'friendly' USSR concentrate such a mass of troops? Hitler just had to somehow react to it. Hadn't he?
Leaked orders relating to defensive measures would be radically different to leaked orders relating to preparations for a surprise invasion.

AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
You can argue that Hitler in the same 4th paragraph warns of possible serious political and military consequences. But these consequences are in no way connected with the possible active military actions of the USSR. And this is easy to prove, because the Germans planned to destroy the main forces of the Red Army in the western part of the USSR. They were afraid that the Russians would flee to the east. If the USSR attacked Germany, by this he would render the Germans courtesy, as the author of "Operationstugie Ost", Major General Marcks, said.
A preemptive Soviet attack would, at the very least, have disrupted German preparations, with who knows what consequences. It would have had advantages for Germany politically, but I doubt that it is something OKW would have welcomed.

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by AbollonPolweder » 15 Jul 2019 10:51

Max Payload wrote:
12 Jul 2019 00:06
AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
I need to say that the translation of the 4th chapter of Barbarossa you use is not accurate.
To translate the word "abstimmen", the verb "adjust" fits well, and the word "vorsichtig" or "Vorsicht" in the word "Vorsichtsmassnahmen" has the English equivalent - "careful". That is, for example, the German expression "Sei vorsichtig!" in English will be "Be careful!". "Be precautionary!" means rather "Be preventiv!" Correct me if I'm wrong.
I’m no linguist but I doubt that ‘Vorsichtsmassnahmen handelt’ could be translated as anything other than precautionary measures. And precautionary and preventative do have different meanings.
The phrase ‘müssen eindeutig dahin abgestimmt sein’ is perhaps more ambiguous but in the context, ‘must clearly indicate’ seems to be an accurate translation.
AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
Aren't you too exaggerating Hitler's fears about the reaction of the USSR / Stalin to possible leaks? Hitler could easily explain the planning of Barbarossa by the presence of a large number of Soviet divisions on the border with the Reich. There, in late 1940 and early 1941, the superiority of the USSR was overwhelming. For what purpose did the 'friendly' USSR concentrate such a mass of troops? Hitler just had to somehow react to it. Hadn't he?
Leaked orders relating to defensive measures would be radically different to leaked orders relating to preparations for a surprise invasion.

AbollonPolweder wrote:
11 Jul 2019 16:39
You can argue that Hitler in the same 4th paragraph warns of possible serious political and military consequences. But these consequences are in no way connected with the possible active military actions of the USSR. And this is easy to prove, because the Germans planned to destroy the main forces of the Red Army in the western part of the USSR. They were afraid that the Russians would flee to the east. If the USSR attacked Germany, by this he would render the Germans courtesy, as the author of "Operationstugie Ost", Major General Marcks, said.
A preemptive Soviet attack would, at the very least, have disrupted German preparations, with who what consequences. It would have had advantages for Germany politically, but I doubt that it is something OKW would have welcomed.
1. You find yourself in a difficult situation, because linguists from Cambridge and Oxford are against you.
Precaution - an action that is done to prevent something unpleasant or dangerous happening ( Cambridge Dictionary)
Precaution (against something) something that is done in advance in order to prevent problems or to avoid danger ( Oxford Learner's Dictionary)
They believe that - "precaution" and "preventive" are synonyms.
The phrase ‘müssen eindeutig dahin abgestimmt sein’ is perhaps more ambiguous but in the context, ‘must clearly indicate’ seems to be an accurate translation.
In my opinion this phrase is quite understandable, it says that precautions are taken in case of a change in the position of Russia. But Hitler does not specify what kind of changes may be. His commanders took this phrase about the changes differently.
A preemptive Soviet attack would, at the very least, have disrupted German preparations, with who what consequences. It would have had advantages for Germany politically, but I doubt that it is something OKW would have welcomed.
It is a pity that Major General Marcks did not guess about this.
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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 15 Jul 2019 11:05

Max Payload wrote: Leaked orders relating to defensive measures would be radically different to leaked orders relating to preparations for a surprise invasion
This is the theory and your desires. You have not given a single order, in which defensive measures would have been mentioned.
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Max Payload
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by Max Payload » 15 Jul 2019 15:00

AbollonPolweder wrote:
15 Jul 2019 10:51
A preemptive Soviet attack would, at the very least, have disrupted German preparations, with who what consequences. It would have had advantages for Germany politically, but I doubt that it is something OKW would have welcomed.
It is a pity that Major General Marcks did not guess about this.
But then in August 1940 Marcks hadn’t spent months implementing the invasion preparations.

AbollonPolweder wrote:
15 Jul 2019 10:51
The phrase ‘müssen eindeutig dahin abgestimmt sein’ is perhaps more ambiguous but in the context, ‘must clearly indicate’ seems to be an accurate translation.
In my opinion this phrase is quite understandable, it says that precautions are taken in case of a change in the position of Russia. But Hitler does not specify what kind of changes may be. His commanders took this phrase about the changes differently.
??????

AbollonPolweder wrote:
15 Jul 2019 10:51
linguists from Cambridge and Oxford are against you. ... They believe that - "precaution" and "preventive" are synonyms.
My thesaurus doesn’t have prevention as a synonym for precaution.
Collins English Dictionary Third Edition - precaution n. 1. an action taken to avoid a dangerous or undesirable event.

Precautionary measures are generally actions taken to avoid, mitigate or counter the effects of adverse events that may occur.
Preventative measures are taken to ensure that an event (unusually an undesirable event) does not occur.
Routine health checks are precautionary. Inoculations against common diseases are preventative.
There is some cross-over. Flood defences are preventative, but if they are installed in areas not prone to flooding they could also be described as precautionary.

AbollonPolweder wrote:
15 Jul 2019 11:05
Max Payload wrote: Leaked orders relating to defensive measures would be radically different to leaked orders relating to preparations for a surprise invasion
This is the theory and your desires. You have not given a single order, in which defensive measures would have been mentioned.
There weren’t any. Any orders that had been leaked would have been in relation to offensive measures. That was the point, and it was only raised at all in response to your post (#915) stating, “Hitler could easily explain the planning of Barbarossa by the presence of a large number of Soviet divisions on the border with the Reich. ... Hitler just had to somehow react to it. Hadn't he?” Defensive measures could have been easily explained; the largest surprise invasion in history, less so, but one plausible explanation that could have been advanced was that they were precautionary measures in the event of ‘Russia changing its attitude’, that is, becoming a threat. Otherwise Stalin might reasonably have expected, with the Non-Aggression Pact in place, that any German concerns about Soviet divisions on the border would have been raised at the diplomatic level.

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by AbollonPolweder » 17 Jul 2019 13:47

Max Payload wrote:
15 Jul 2019 15:00
...
But then in August 1940 Marcks hadn’t spent months implementing the invasion preparations.
It's right. But Marcks took into account the possibility of a sudden (plötzlich) attack of the USSR, as well as, for example, Lossberg, but considered it extremely unlikely. And as it turned out, his calculations were correct
Max Payload wrote:
15 Jul 2019 15:00
??????
And why are you surprised? Hitler appeals to the gentlemen Oberbefehlshaber. How many such "gentlemen" issued orders on the basis of Barbarossa? Let's count: OKH, OKM, OKL, three army groups, four tank groups, almost 10 armies. In total about 20 Oberbefehlshaber. Have you read at least one order out of 20? Or do you reason purely theoretically?
Max Payload wrote:
15 Jul 2019 15:00
My thesaurus doesn’t have prevention as a synonym for precaution.
Collins English Dictionary Third Edition - precaution n. 1. an action taken to avoid a dangerous or undesirable event.
...
Very good! Now translate the word "avoid". Avoid - to try to prevent something bad from happening. ( Cambridge Dictionary). The circle is closed. Isn't it?
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by Max Payload » 18 Jul 2019 23:59

AbollonPolweder wrote:
17 Jul 2019 13:47
Max Payload wrote:
15 Jul 2019 15:00
??????
And why are you surprised?
Not surprised, just totally unable to understand whatever point you were trying to make.


AbollonPolweder wrote:
17 Jul 2019 13:47
Avoid - to try to prevent something bad from happening. ( Cambridge Dictionary). The circle is closed. Isn't it?
Interesting that you omitted the other cited meanings in that dictionary - to stay away from someone or something; to not allow yourself to do something
Avoid - evade, circumvent, dodge, get or keep away from
The only relationship to ‘prevent’ is that by avoiding something you prevent the consequences of not avoiding it from becoming manifest. That is the meaning of ‘try to prevent’ in your carefully selected dictionary definition.
So no, the circle isn’t closed.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by AbollonPolweder » 19 Jul 2019 11:18

Max Payload wrote:
18 Jul 2019 23:59
...
Not surprised, just totally unable to understand whatever point you were trying to make.
My "point" is very simple. It is necessary to find out: whether point 4 was understandable for approximately 20 German commanders. Only one way to answer this question can be - to read their orders. I ask you probably the third time already: have you read at least one such order?
No answer! Why?
Max Payload wrote:
18 Jul 2019 23:59
Interesting that you omitted the other cited meanings in that dictionary - to stay away from someone or something; to not allow yourself to do something
Avoid - evade, circumvent, dodge, get or keep away from
The only relationship to ‘prevent’ is that by avoiding something you prevent the consequences of not avoiding it from becoming manifest. That is the meaning of ‘try to prevent’ in your carefully selected dictionary definition.
So no, the circle isn’t closed.
The dispute began with the accuracy of the English translation. Obviously, the meaning of the English word "precaution" is much broader than the German "Vorsicht".
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by Max Payload » 19 Jul 2019 16:37

AbollonPolweder wrote:
19 Jul 2019 11:18
My "point" is very simple. It is necessary to find out: whether point 4 was understandable for approximately 20 German commanders. Only one way to answer this question can be - to read their orders.
See post #912

AbollonPolweder wrote:
19 Jul 2019 11:18
The dispute began with the accuracy of the English translation. Obviously, the meaning of the English word "precaution" is much broader than the German "Vorsicht".
We were not not discussing ‘Vorsicht’ but the phrase ‘Vorsichtsmassnahmen handelt’ - precautionary measures.
You then questioned the meaning of the word precautionary, and then tried to assert that the word avoid means prevent, which it clearly does not.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by AbollonPolweder » 22 Jul 2019 11:31

Max Payload wrote:
19 Jul 2019 16:37
...
AbollonPolweder wrote:
19 Jul 2019 11:18
The dispute began with the accuracy of the English translation. Obviously, the meaning of the English word "precaution" is much broader than the German "Vorsicht".
We were not not discussing ‘Vorsicht’ but the phrase ‘Vorsichtsmassnahmen handelt’ - precautionary measures.
You then questioned the meaning of the word precautionary, and then tried to assert that the word avoid means prevent, which it clearly does not.
‘Vorsichtsmassnahmen handelt’ - precautionary measures.
"Precautionary measures" in German means one word "Vorsichtsmassnahmen".
1. You have obvious problems with German. 2. You have not read a single order issued on the basis of Barbarossa. 3. You do not know how Hitler assessed the position of the USSR in relation to Reich 3 before December 18, 1940. Conclusion: your versions from post # 914 11 Jul 2019, 02:41 are absolutely unreliable and doubtful.
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Max Payload
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general "

Post by Max Payload » 23 Jul 2019 01:14

AbollonPolweder wrote:
22 Jul 2019 11:31
"Precautionary measures" in German means one word "Vorsichtsmassnahmen".
1. You have obvious problems with German.
It seems that one of us does. Vorsichtsmassnahmen means precautionary. But it least we seem to agree that section 4 requires that, “All orders to be issued by the Commanders in Chief on the basis of this directive must clearly indicate that they are precautionary measures for the possibility that Russia should change her present attitude toward us.”

AbollonPolweder wrote:
22 Jul 2019 11:31
2. You have not read a single order issued on the basis of Barbarossa.
viewtopic.php?t=62192

(Assembly orders were not disseminated until after the 3 February conference, more than six weeks after Directive 21 was signed.)

AbollonPolweder wrote:
22 Jul 2019 11:31
3. You do not know how Hitler assessed the position of the USSR in relation to Reich 3 before December 18, 1940.
But I do known what he put his name to on 18 December.
(And on 12 November - section 5; and the transcript of the Molotov meeting, plus reported side comments; and reported comments/objectives from 21July and 31 July).

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