Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

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Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 13 Aug 2019 19:33

In June, this army had 18 divisions and it is closer than the others was to Belorrussia. On Berezina, the Soviets used their last reserves and only the complete absence of German troops there allowed them to move on. In the first 2 weeks of the offensive, the 16th army did not move a meter west.

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From Ziemke's book about a big problem.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/US ... at-15.html

Giving Model command of Army Group Center was for Hitler also a handy way to sidetrack an OKH proposal to take Army Group North back to the line Dvinsk-Riga and so gain divisions for the battle in the center.

Fourth Army's fate was sealed on 30 June. The Russians had tanks and self-propelled artillery within range of the Beresino bridge. Even to get the troops across the river without their equipment appeared nearly hopeless.31 Elsewhere the army group gained a day's respite when the Russians stopped before Borisov and Slutsk'. Model told Hitler he might be able to hold both places if he could get divisions from Army Group North, which could spare two or three divisions if it pulled back its right flank, then still east of Polotsk. He also wanted Army Group North to extend its flank south and restore contact with Third Panzer Army, which had broken away two days before. Hitler ignored the proposals but instructed Model to start swinging Second Army back to cover Slutsk' and Baranovichi.

By 1 July Model was certain the most easterly line he could try to hold was between Baranovichi and Molodechno. He expected some advantage from earthworks and trenches left there from World War I, but told Hitler he would need several divisions from Army Group North to defend Molodechno. He was worried most about his left flank. Between the Army Group North flank, "nailed down" at Polotsk by Hitler's orders, and the Third Panzer Army left flank northeast of Minsk, a 50-mile gap had opened. A gap nearly as wide separated the panzer army's right flank and the Fourth Army short line around Molodechno. Third Panzer Army could be encircled or simply swept away any time the Russians wanted to make the effort, and thereafter the road to Riga and the Baltic coast would be open.

Although Model branded it "a futile experiment," Hitler insisted that Army Group North hold Polotsk and strike to the southwest from there to regain contact with Third Panzer Army. The Commanding General, Army Group North, Lindemann, reported that with two divisions, all he could spare if his flank had to stay at Polotsk, he could not attack. When on 3 July, after receiving permission to go back a short distance from Polotsk, Lindemann continued to insist he could not attack, Hitler dismissed him and appointed Friessner in his place.

By stretching its front west, Army Group North narrowed the gap to Third Panzer Army to about twenty miles. Friessner was going to attack south with three divisions, but First Baltic Front's Fourth Shock and Sixth Guards Armies began pressing toward Dvinsk and thus tied down everything on the army group's flank. Friessner then proposed as a "small solution" to let Sixteenth Army withdraw to the LITHUANIA position, a line being constructed from Kraslava east of Dvinsk to Ostrov; Hitler refused to consider going more than half that distance.

At Fuehrer headquarters, Hitler proposed giving him a panzer division from Germany and two divisions from Army Group North right away, two more later. With these Third Panzer Army was to attack north and close the gap. On the question of the "big solution," taking Army Group North back to the Riga-Dvinsk-Dvina River line, which was what Model wanted most, Hitler was adamant. Admiral Doenitz, he said, had submitted a report proving such a withdrawal ruinous for the Navy.

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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 13 Aug 2019 19:47

Hitler deceived all during war and the subsequent generations of historians, history buffs were cruelly deceived too. They looked for a problem in tank divisions in Ukraine and Normandy. In fact, the interaction of the Army groups Center and North more efficiently solved the problems.
Further Berezina Russians would not pass if the 16th army allocated 3-4 divisions for strengthening the 3rd tank army.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... uly_03.png

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Order of battle (15 June 1944)

At the disposal of the 16. Armee
- 24. Infanterie-Division
- 69. Infanterie-Division
- 281. Sicherungs-Division
- 285. Sicherungs-Division (part)
I. Armeekorps
- 205. Infanterie-Division
- 87. Infanterie-Division
X. Armeekorps
- 389. Infanterie-Division (most)
- 290. Infanterie-Division
- 263. Infanterie-Division
II. Armeekorps
- 81. Infanterie-Division
- 329. Infanterie-Division
- 23. Infanterie-Division
VI. Waffen-Armeekorps der SS (lettisches)
- 15. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS (lettische Nr. 1)
- 19. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr. 2)
- 93. Infanterie-Division
L. Armeekorps
- 218. Infanterie-Division
- 132. Infanterie-Division
- 83. Infanterie-Division

jesk
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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 13 Aug 2019 21:21

The situation on July 9th. The strip of the 16th army increased by 40%. Instead of separating divisions into the Center, the army is forced to cover space. Hitler stretched the front.

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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 16 Aug 2019 20:07

How the Fuhrer sabotage works. He ordered a counterblow by two divisions from the Polotsk area. For these purposes, 24 infantry division was deployed there. Commander of the Army Group North Lindemann argued.

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24 ID
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Elsewhere the army group gained a day's respite when the Russians stopped before Borisov and Slutsk. Model told Hitler he might be able to hold both places if he could get divisions from Army Group North, which could spare two or three divisions if it pulled back its right flank, then still east of Polotsk. He also wanted Army Group North to extend its flank south and restore contact with Third Panzer Army, which had broken away two days before.

Although Model branded it "a futile experiment," Hitler insisted that Army Group North hold Polotsk and strike to the southwest from there to regain contact with Third Panzer Army. The Commanding General, Army Group North, Lindemann, reported that with two divisions, all he could spare if his flank had to stay at Polotsk, he could not attack. When on 3 July, after receiving permission to go back a short distance from Polotsk, Lindemann continued to insist he could not attack, Hitler dismissed him and appointed Friessner in his place.


The 6th Guards Army bypassed Polotsk from the south and developed the offensive in a westerly direction.

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215 and 132 infantry divisions were transferred to the Dvinsk region (Dunaburg) to cover the flank. Dvinsk was released only on July 27.

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215 ID
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132 ID
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Model requested divisions to strengthen the Center group, but through Hitler's efforts at least 3 divisions were spread across the southern flank of the 16th army. Attention! Which was not in June (an increase of 40%).

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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 17 Aug 2019 22:51

On this map, it is well visible how Hitler held the divisions to the north, opening the way for the Russian armies. Hitler grotesquely stretched the front line.

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The Germans were to withdraw troops west of Polotsk. To the north of the Dvina river, leave 87 infantry division. The 2nd Baltic Front went on the offensive on 10 July and until that date the attacks to the north of Dvina could not carry much threat. The retreat from the Polotsk ledge liberated 2 divisions. 132 and 215 id moved to the 3 panzer army. With such forces Model promised to stop the Russians on Berezina.

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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 13 Sep 2019 16:18

Another example of impromptu German officers as a result of Hitler’s actual ban on using the resources of Army Group North to save the Center. On June 25, 5th Panzer Division headed to the Bobruisk area, but already on the road changed its route in the direction of Borisov, 150 km north ... The Germans assumed, the North group will strengthen the 3rd tank army; "Northern Ukraine" - 9th army. And this is logical only by looking at the map. Model believed that the group "North" should take custody of 3 tank army.

Model told Hitler he might be able to hold both places if he could get divisions from Army Group North, which could spare two or three divisions if it pulled back its right flank, then still east of Polotsk. He also wanted Army Group North to extend its flank south and restore contact with Third Panzer Army, which had broken away two days before. Hitler ignored the proposals.

https://iknigi.net/avtor-aleksey-isaev/ ... ge-15.html

The 5th Panzer Division, which was at the beginning of Bagration’s at Model’s part of the Army Group Northern Ukraine, was another reserve formation, with the advance units of which Rotmistrov’s tankers met. The order to transfer her to the GA Center lane followed at 1.00 on June 25, 1944. It was originally planned to use it in the Bobruisk area. Loading in trains took place in Helm and Vlodava. Further, the echelons of the division set off on the route Wlodawa - Brest - Baranovichi - Slutsk - Bobruisk. Already on the road, the route changed to Minsk - Borisov - Krupki. Due to numerous bombings and air strikes, the movement is accompanied by many delays. The first echelons arrived in Borisov from noon on June 27. The 89th combat engineer battalion of the division arrives first, and it is he who first enters the battle and covers the arrival of the remaining parts of the division.
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The site north of Minsk is easier for defense. 1st Belorussian front initially struck west of the Berezina. There is more space for maneuver. 3 tank army only needed to gain a foothold on the water line, where the enemy could be kept by small forces. An additional 4-5 divisions, the price of the issue.

Optimal line of defense along the rivers Ushacha Berezina

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Last edited by jesk on 13 Sep 2019 18:41, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Hitler Blocks The Use Of The 16th Army In "Bagration".

Post by Robert Rojas » 13 Sep 2019 18:25

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - August 13, 2019 - 10:33am AND your subsequent postings thereafter, old yours truly is amply impressed that you've taken on what is essentially one of the more unpopular forum topics gravitating upon THE worst catastrophe inflicted upon the Wehrmacht during the epic WAR IN THE EAST. With that said, do you ultimately intend to touch upon Adolf Hitler's bizarre mania for the creation of "fortified localities" where the garrisons had very specific orders to FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN AND THE LAST ROUND OF AMMUNITION? Are you also going to touch upon how Soviet Aviation had achieved unprecedented tactical air superiority over the wide ranging battlefields (plural) encompassing the whole of Army Group Center? Are you also going to touch upon how the Red Army would send former German prisoners-of-war behind the German lines to sow confusion with disinformation? It's just some food for thought. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this unpopular chapter in the RUSSO-GERMAN WAR - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: RE: Hitler Blocks The Use Of The 16th Army In "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 13 Sep 2019 19:00

Robert Rojas wrote:
13 Sep 2019 18:25
Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - August 13, 2019 - 10:33am AND your subsequent postings thereafter, old yours truly is amply impressed that you've taken on what is essentially one of the more unpopular forum topics gravitating upon THE worst catastrophe inflicted upon the Wehrmacht during the epic WAR IN THE EAST. With that said, do you ultimately intend to touch upon Adolf Hitler's bizarre mania for the creation of "fortified localities" where the garrisons had very specific orders to FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN AND THE LAST ROUND OF AMMUNITION? Are you also going to touch upon how Soviet Aviation had achieved unprecedented tactical air superiority over the wide ranging battlefields (plural) encompassing the whole of Army Group Center? Are you also going to touch upon how the Red Army would send former German prisoners-of-war behind the German lines to sow confusion with disinformation? It's just some food for thought. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this unpopular chapter in the RUSSO-GERMAN WAR - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
Aviation played a role. Fortresses too. But the Germans in Belorussia had 2 chances of salvation.
1. Quickly move away from the fortresses to a shortened front line.
2. To gain a foothold on the Berezina north of Minsk. Model decided to abandon attempts to save the 4th army, with units of 3 armored and 9 armies. Mainly out of fear of the encirclement of 3 tank army. Between this army, 4 and 16 on the flanks, gaps formed where the enemy rushed. All of this could have been easily avoided, if Hitler had not blocked the allocation of resources from the North group. What with reference to sources is written in the topic.

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RE: Hitler Blocks The Use Of The 16th Army In "Bagration".

Post by Robert Rojas » 13 Sep 2019 22:16

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Friday - September 13, 2019 - 10:00am, old yours truly has often wondered what the outcome of Operation Bagration might have been 'IF', by fate and happenstance, Operation Overlord had been defeated in detail on the coast of France OR after June 06, 1944. Just think of all of those Wehrmacht combat formations that MIGHT have been made available for operations on the Eastern Front shortly after the liquidation of the ANGLO/AMERICAN effort in Western France. It's just some speculative food for thought. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents, pfennigs, or kopecks worth on this not so popular topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

jesk
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Re: RE: Hitler Blocks The Use Of The 16th Army In "Bagration".

Post by jesk » 14 Sep 2019 07:35

Robert Rojas wrote:
13 Sep 2019 22:16
old yours truly has often wondered what the outcome of Operation Bagration might have been 'IF', by fate and happenstance, Operation Overlord had been defeated in detail on the coast of France OR after June 06, 1944. Just think of all of those Wehrmacht combat formations that MIGHT have been made available for operations on the Eastern Front shortly after the liquidation of the ANGLO/AMERICAN effort in Western France. It's just some speculative food for thought.
The complex of reasons. Churchill believed the evacuation of the Wehrmacht from Italy and the Balkans significantly improved Hitler's ability to defeat the allies in France. Holding the Balkans and Italy was a big strategic mistake.
Only 60 divisions were in Western Europe (France, Belgium, Holland) and another 102 in other places.

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By analogy with subsequent Arab-Israeli wars. Germany could use a central position.

https://www.proza.ru/2005/05/27-125

5. Israel cannot wage a long war. The war makes it necessary to mobilize such a huge percentage of the population that in a few weeks the economy will simply cease to function.

The only plus in this gloomy picture was "... the presence of internal operating lines ...".

Translated from professional military jargon into universal language, this meant that the central position of the country made it possible to strike at enemies in turn - if you act quickly.

A direct consequence of the 5 basic provisions was the need to build such an army that could switch from one front to another with the highest possible speed and inflict maximum damage to the enemy in minimum time.

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Re: Hitler blocks the use of the 16th army in "Bagration".

Post by AriX » 01 Oct 2019 18:42

Without mobile formations and stalemate situation in air, catastrophe of AG Center was just a question of time.
Those armored and panzergrenadier divisions + fighter groups in France would be helpfull in Belarus.

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