At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 13 Aug 2019 08:56

See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Aug 2019 09:27

ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:56
See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.
You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Aug 2019 09:29

jesk wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:13
ljadw wrote:
11 Aug 2019 07:01
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019 06:49
Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019 05:09
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019 04:48
Without the Russian Front Hitler could have cut off the Med. at Gibraltar, secured North Africa, captured the Suez Canal, occupied the Turkish Straits, taken Malta, and invaded England successfully, all that with far less divisions required in the East. …

I have heard something like that before.........what was it again?
Ah yes, ' You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,'
How did that prediction turn out?
Hitler predicted before the Russian invasion Stalin's government would break up. Hitler was wrong. Had the Soviet government collapsed, it would have been like Baghdad after the fall of Saddam. The German occupation authorities would still not have been able to control the situation. But none of that lost the war for Germany. … Hitler's declaration of war on America on December 11, 1941, lost the war. … On December 10, 1941, Hitler had not lost the war. He had not won it either. It would have eventually ended in a stalemate with the Line of Demarcation being possibly a little east of Poland.

Globalization41.
That is not true : Hitler had already lost the war in July 1941,when the foundations of Barbarossa proved to be wrong : a coalition of Britain and the SU would defeat Germany, even without an active intervention from the US .
A coalition of Britain and the USA also would have defeated Germany, even when the SU remained neutral or was defeated .
See the diaries of Halder and von Bock. The last very much wanted to attack Moscow in July. Hitler forbade... Germans could do it!
Actually in august and it was certainly considered feasible by the high command.

checkov
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by checkov » 13 Aug 2019 15:38

I could name a few possibilities (breaking of axis code, drive on Moscow , Stalingrad, DOW on the USA, man that one was stupid).

I would like to suggest instead when it failed to win WW2.

May 24, 1940.

The day Hitler gave a halt order on the drive to the English Channel (Dunkirk). It turned a a war winning victory that could have rivaled Guaguamela or Tours into just another decisive one.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Paul Lakowski » 14 Aug 2019 07:17

I gather in 43-44 LW averaged 4900 planes in west and 2700 in the East , suggesting if no Eastern Front, LW west would be 55% more fighters etc.

Reading various books HEER had 2000 tanks in the east at the end of 1943 , while 830 were deployed in the west, >400 in Italy.

In May 1944 western front had 1370-1390 tanks growing to1891 tanks by June 1944. In the east they had 1370 in May growing to 2000 a few months including almost 900 StuG .

In march 1945 reportedly 760 tanks were in Italy/WEST , while 2600 were deployed in the east.

It looks like in every case -war without Russia- means more than double the number of tanks/assault guns in the west.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2019 07:59

Aida1 wrote:
13 Aug 2019 09:27
ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:56
See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.
You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.
And this attack would fail ,because AGC was not ready .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2019 08:01

checkov wrote:
13 Aug 2019 15:38
I could name a few possibilities (breaking of axis code, drive on Moscow , Stalingrad, DOW on the USA, man that one was stupid).

I would like to suggest instead when it failed to win WW2.

May 24, 1940.

The day Hitler gave a halt order on the drive to the English Channel (Dunkirk). It turned a a war winning victory that could have rivaled Guaguamela or Tours into just another decisive one.
The DOW on the US was not stupid, it was the result of PH. PH meant war with the US .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2019 08:16

Paul Lakowski wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:17
I gather in 43-44 LW averaged 4900 planes in west and 2700 in the East , suggesting if no Eastern Front, LW west would be 55% more fighters etc.

This is not correct :
LW fighter strength in the West in December 1943 : 884. In the East : 473 .
Total LW strength in the East in December 1943 :1683
Source :The Fall of the LW (Hootton ) PP 171 and 265 .
Besides : a neutral USSR would still tie a big part of the LW .Thus, only a small part of these 473 fighters would be available .

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 14 Aug 2019 10:04

ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:59
Aida1 wrote:
13 Aug 2019 09:27
ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:56
See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.
You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.
And this attack would fail ,because AGC was not ready .
The German high command clearly disagreed with you and the attack was intended in august as you know very well.And keeping on the defensive is no guarantee for using less resources as your enemy can put you under severe pressure.
Last edited by Aida1 on 14 Aug 2019 11:05, edited 1 time in total.

Boby
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Boby » 14 Aug 2019 11:04

Aida1 wrote:
The German high command clearly disagreed with you
H.Gr. Mitte was better on 1 October than on 1 September, as was the railway capacity, supply and stockpiling.

Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 14 Aug 2019 11:08

Boby wrote:
14 Aug 2019 11:04
Aida1 wrote:
The German high command clearly disagreed with you
H.Gr. Mitte was better on 1 October than on 1 September, as was the railway capacity, supply and stockpiling.
The problem is that time works against you where weather is concerned and the enemy could be getting stronger at a higher rate than you.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2019 11:44

Aida1 wrote:
14 Aug 2019 10:04
ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:59
Aida1 wrote:
13 Aug 2019 09:27
ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:56
See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.
You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.
And this attack would fail ,because AGC was not ready .
The German high command clearly disagreed with you
Wrong : Halder wrote on August 3 : the question of munition is unsolvable .
And,as everyone knows, without munition,no attack .

Aida1
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Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 14 Aug 2019 12:05

ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 11:44
Aida1 wrote:
14 Aug 2019 10:04
ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:59
Aida1 wrote:
13 Aug 2019 09:27
ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2019 08:56
See the diary of Bock from July 26, where he wrote, aftermeeting Keitel, that Hitler now hoped on an intervention from Japan .This meant that already after a month,Barbarossa had failed .
What Bock wanted and what was possible, were two different things .
On August 3 Halder wrote in his diary : The question of munitions is for the time being unsolvable,because the trains are failing to appear .
Without ammunition, Bock could not attack Moscow .
On July 23 Halder reported that the Panzer strength was down to 50 %.
An attack against Moscow ( for which there was no reason ) in July 1941 would fail.
You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.
And this attack would fail ,because AGC was not ready .
The German high command clearly disagreed with you
Wrong : Halder wrote on August 3 : the question of munition is unsolvable .
And,as everyone knows, without munition,no attack .
You know perfectly well that Halder proposed the attack against Moscow later that same month.And without Ammo no defense either.You can even consume more Ammo when defending if the enemy keeps up the pressure.

jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 15 Aug 2019 07:20

Aida1 wrote:
14 Aug 2019 12:05
ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 11:44
Aida1 wrote:
14 Aug 2019 10:04
ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:59
Aida1 wrote:
13 Aug 2019 09:27


You are selectively picking and choosing what suits you as you cannot ignore that the German high command did intend to attack towards Moscow towards the end of august.
And this attack would fail ,because AGC was not ready .
The German high command clearly disagreed with you
Wrong : Halder wrote on August 3 : the question of munition is unsolvable .
And,as everyone knows, without munition,no attack .
You know perfectly well that Halder proposed the attack against Moscow later that same month.And without Ammo no defense either.You can even consume more Ammo when defending if the enemy keeps up the pressure.
Von Bock wanted to attack in July and without pauses. In the Battle of Smolensk at an early stage, only part of the army group was involved and the Germans fought successfully. 300 km to Moscow, success could be repeated again. July 15-20 is the start date of the offensive on Moscow, without Hitler. But that is part of the truth. The offensive could have been faster if Hitler had not detained the 4th and 9th armies in the rear to encircle the Soviet armies at Bialystok. Von Bock wanted to drop the Russian armies in the rear and move on.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Paul Lakowski » 15 Aug 2019 23:43

ljadw wrote:
14 Aug 2019 08:16
Paul Lakowski wrote:
14 Aug 2019 07:17
I gather in 43-44 LW averaged 4900 planes in west and 2700 in the East , suggesting if no Eastern Front, LW west would be 55% more fighters etc.

This is not correct :
LW fighter strength in the West in December 1943 : 884. In the East : 473 .
Total LW strength in the East in December 1943 :1683
Source :The Fall of the LW (Hootton ) PP 171 and 265 .
Besides : a neutral USSR would still tie a big part of the LW .Thus, only a small part of these 473 fighters would be available .
The question was how much difference the fighting in the east made?

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