German Atomic Weapons Program

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 11 Feb 2024 23:26

williamjpellas wrote:
11 Feb 2024 22:54
Evidently you have serious problems with English comprehension. The post clearly states that scout parties were probably looking for remote locations at which to test the bomb, not that it had been completed and tested.
A bomb. Given that the Germans actually tested both the Winterballon and Sommerballon floating mines for attacking Soviet hydroelectric plants on a frozen lake at Finse Lappland, in Northern Finland from about July 1944 to the end of 1944, and that these weapons used a drogue parachute, it's likely these were what is referenced.

See: Müller, The Air War in Russia

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 12 Feb 2024 00:44

There are a number of primary source and contemporary news accounts that consistently mention the same basic characteristics of the German - Austrian hydrogen bomb. Here are a few of them.

------------------------------

Germans Timed Atom Bomb for October. Evening Standard (London). 7 August 1945.

The Germans had an atom bomb which would have been ready by October. A colossal blast effect was claimed for the German bomb. It was said it would wipe out everything inside a radius of six miles, said B.U.P. today. The German atomic plans were uncovered four months ago, when an Allied search party walked into a small silk factory at Celle, north of Hanover. A laboratory of two rooms was buried away in the heart of the factory. A famous research scientist [Wilhelm Groth] was still at work. He was flown to Britain the same day. This man, with others, had been working on the Atom bombs for months. The Nazi Government poured out money on it. Apparently they had not asked for immediate results.

(Groth was taken into custody by the British "T Force", specifically Brian Urquhart. Where was Groth between the time of his capture and the extended visit by Heisenberg et al at Farm Hall? What did he give his British captors? Why wasn't he at Farm Hall himself? --- WP)

Nazis Five Months from Completion of Atomic Bomb. Pittsburgh Press. 7 August 1945 p. 14. 21ST ARMY GROUP HEADQUARTERS, Germany, Aug. 7 (UP)

Germany was within five months of completing her own atom bomb when the European war ended. A British task force four months ago discovered that German scientists almost had completed work on the bomb in a two-room laboratory in the heart of a small silk factory north of Hannover. The bomb, it was calculated, would wipe out everything within a radius of six miles. A famous German research scientist [Wilhelm Groth, in] charge of the experiments was flown immediately to Britain at the time. He estimated his work would have been completed by October. He said the German Government had given him unlimited funds and equipment and had not demanded any immediate results.

Nazis Planned Rocket to Hit U.S. New York Times. 4 December 1946.

Wernher von Braun, 34-year-old German scientist who invented the deadly V-2 supersonic rocket, revealed today that before the war ended the Nazis were building a 100-ton rocket to strike at the United States. Von Braun told reporters that the 100-ton rocket was on the drawing board when the Allies overran Europe. He said it would have carried a “pay-load” of six tons and would have traveled thousands of miles to strike the United States.


Nazis Were Working On 100-Ton Rocket. The Courier-Mail (Brisbane, Australia). 5 December 1946 p. 1. [Nazis Were Working On 100-Ton Rocket - The Courier-Mail (Brisbane, Qld. : 1933 - 1954) - 5 Dec 1946] NEW YORK, December 4.

When the war ended the Nazis were building a 100-ton rocket with which to strike at the United States. This has been revealed by the brilliant German scientist, Wernher von Braun, who invented the V2 rocket. Von Braun is now in the United States working with American experts on rocket experiments. The super-rocket, he said, was on the drawing-board when Germany was over-run. It would have carried an explosive charge of six tons, and would have been capable of travelling thousands of miles.

Also reported in:

6-Miles Radius Bomb. Toronto Daily Star. 7 August 1945. p. 1.

6-Miles Radius Bomb. Madera Tribune (Madera, California). 7 August 1945. p. 1.

Bomba de 10 Kilometros. ABC (Madrid). 8 August 1945.

------------------------------

Dr. Rider:

“These articles also mention a bomb with a 6-mile blast radius. As already noted, a 6-mile or 10-km blast radius would correspond to a ∼1.6 megaton bomb, which would suggest a hydrogen bomb and not a simple fission bomb. Wilhelm Groth, a very talented physicist who along with Paul Harteck had played a major role in numerous aspects of the German nuclear program since early 1939, stated that Germany was five months away from completing such weapons. If true, that was a feat that the U.S. and U.S.S.R. did not actually accomplish until the 1950s.”

-------------------------------

Bruno Spampanato. 1974. Contromemoriale. Rome: Centro Editoriale Nazionale. pp. 917, 1116.

Something like this was said to us by Goffredo Coppola, who had been in Germany at a scientific congress representing the government and then came back. We met at the Plaza with him and Enrico Santamaria. Coppola told us something that borders on the limits of fantasy. But everything can be suspected of Coppola, the Magnificent Rector of the University of Bologna, except that he deals in fakes like Theil, or other intellectual propaganda. Prof. Coppola told us what he had been confidentially told by scientists who are world-renowned for their studies.

This Coppola told us on 16 February 1945:

“The Germans have found the means to disintegrate the atom. And an electronic discovery. The disintegration occurs in successive cycles and covers vast areas of tens of [square] kilometers. In the laboratories work is at full capacity.” [...] Among the Italians the most in contact with the highest German military circles was Marshal [Rodolfo] Graziani. And it was Graziani himself in his self-defense before the Special Court in Rome [1948] who testified: “Everybody can say what they want about the matter of secret weapons; but the fact is that secret weapons in Germany were there: they were there in the most absolute way and there was a renewal in the whole aviation with jet aircraft, and they already had them in large numbers, thousands of them. They were not able to put them into operation because at that time there began to be a shortage of gasoline, and later there was the carpet bombing done by the Anglo-Americans on the plants of industries. They were also going to make anti-radar for signaling and they could have started the submarine wars again. There was the V-1 and there was the V-2, but it went all the way up to the V-10 which destroyed within a ten-kilometer radius every element of life.”

-------------------------------------------------------

Werner Grothmann, Himmler's top wartime adjutant, described at least five (5) different nuclear weapon designs on which the Germans were working during the war. One of these was what he termed "a swollen bomb". Some years after the war, Friedwardt Winterberg, a protege of Heisenberg and Diebner who was brought to the US in the mid-1950s under Operation Paperclip, included the following diagram in one of his books about the principles of nuclear weapons.

Image

This is the Prandtl-Meyer hydrogen bomb configuration, obviously very different from both the Soviet sloika ("layer cake") and the American Teller-Ulam designs. Prandtl-Meyer was based on earlier German research in hydrodynamics and the behavior of shock waves in water. Was this or a similar predecessor what Grothmann was referring to when he spoke of "a swollen bomb"?

------------------------------------

And of course, there is this document:


Image


That's the one in which Edward Teller requests that Siegfried Flugge be "obtain(ed) from Germany...who can be of marked assistance in carrying out...a research program on various phases of research in physics of the solid state". In plain English, this means that Teller wanted Flugge to help him build the hydrogen bomb. This from a German whose wartime program amounted to exactly nothing according to all of the learned experts around here.

There are mountains more in Dr. Rider's book. The funny thing about that is, if you don't read it, you don't know any of this.

See how that works? :thumbsup:

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 12 Feb 2024 16:23

williamjpellas wrote:
12 Feb 2024 00:44
And of course, there is this document:


Image


That's the one in which Edward Teller requests that Siegfried Flugge be "obtain(ed) from Germany...who can be of marked assistance in carrying out...a research program on various phases of research in physics of the solid state". In plain English, this means that Teller wanted Flugge to help him build the hydrogen bomb. This from a German whose wartime program amounted to exactly nothing according to all of the learned experts around here.

There are mountains more in Dr. Rider's book. The funny thing about that is, if you don't read it, you don't know any of this.

See how that works? :thumbsup:
Solid state physics means no such thing. It is the study of atomic structure in solids. It is a field applicable to a variety of end uses like chemistry and solid-state electronic components. In the nuclear field it is most commonly applied to nuclear magnetic resonance. So, there is no direct implication that Teller wanted to bring Flugge to the US specifically for nuclear weapons research, but rather more likely because he had specialized knowledge in the general field of solid-state physics.

Unlike you, I'm not reading anything into this memo, but rather taking it at face value. Again, it is the realm of conspiracy theorists that take a memo and conclude from it something that's not there.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 13 Feb 2024 17:52

Here is another obvious conspiracy theorist, in this case a Russian. Bonus points with this one because he mentions both the WWII German and Japanese nuclear weapons programs. Note the publisher, which is the U.S Government Printing Office, and also the agency website on which the electronic version of the book is archived, which is NASA. Both are well known cesspools of kook fringe conspiracy theories because of course they are.

Right?

Boris Chertok. 2005–2012. Rockets and People. 4 vols. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office [https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-pu ... nd-people/] [Vol. 1, pp. 217–218:]

Image

“The Smersh military intelligence representative posed the following question to us at a meeting: “The Germans have issued leaflets that say that we will not take Berlin, and that we will receive such a blow that there won’t be any bones to gather. The Fuhrer has a secret weapon in store so that the Red Army will be completely annihilated on German soil. What could that weapon be?”

Indeed, what could it be? If it were the V-2, then no matter how many of them Hitler had “in store,” this weapon would not bother the Red Army. This much was clear to us. Chemical weapons? using them in any form on German soil would now be more dangerous to the Germans than to us.

We decided that this was pure propaganda. And it turned out we were right. In the United States, Germany, and the USSR, a new, top-secret weapon really was being developed—an atomic weapon. But even we, who had access to top-secret materials, knew virtually nothing about it until 6 August 1945, when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

Back then, we did not know that just a stone’s throw away, a group of specialists from (Soviet nuclear physicist Ivan) Kurchatov’s team was already preparing to search for German atomic secrets. This team had the highest authority, for at that time the main chief of our atomic operations was Lavrentiy Beriya himself, and other related special committees were being directed by powerful organizers such as Vannikov and Malyshev. We did not know that in addition to the allied armies heading toward our troops from the west, there were also special missions being sent out to seize German rocket technology and rocket specialists, search for nuclear physicists, and seize everything that had been done in Germany on the new scientific frontiers—first and foremost in the fields of guided missiles, nuclear fission, and radar.

SMERSH teams investigated the ruins of the Auer Gesselschaft uranium processing plant near Berlin after the USAAF bombed it in an effort to keep the materiel being prepared there from falling into Soviet hands. SMERSH personnel also accompanied the Red Army in its offensive in northern Korea. The Soviet nuclear program got a considerable boost from what it captured in Korea as well as the better known war booty from eastern Europe.”[/b]

https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-pu ... nd-people/

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-a ... -2009-0036

https://tvseans.az/en/person/13028/boris-certok

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/worl ... at-99.html

---------------------

Image

But....but.....but.......Conspiracy theory! Heisenberg! Farm Hall! The Germans were nowhere close to a bomb! The Japanese did nothing! La-la-la-I-can't-hear-you!!!

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Feb 2024 19:49

williamjpellas wrote:
13 Feb 2024 17:52
Here is another obvious conspiracy theorist, in this case a Russian. Bonus points with this one because he mentions both the WWII German and Japanese nuclear weapons programs. Note the publisher, which is the U.S Government Printing Office, and also the agency website on which the electronic version of the book is archived, which is NASA. Both are well known cesspools of kook fringe conspiracy theories because of course they are.

Right?

Boris Chertok. 2005–2012. Rockets and People. 4 vols. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office [https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-pu ... nd-people/] [Vol. 1, pp. 217–218:]

Image

“The Smersh military intelligence representative posed the following question to us at a meeting: “The Germans have issued leaflets that say that we will not take Berlin, and that we will receive such a blow that there won’t be any bones to gather. The Fuhrer has a secret weapon in store so that the Red Army will be completely annihilated on German soil. What could that weapon be?”

Indeed, what could it be? If it were the V-2, then no matter how many of them Hitler had “in store,” this weapon would not bother the Red Army. This much was clear to us. Chemical weapons? using them in any form on German soil would now be more dangerous to the Germans than to us.

We decided that this was pure propaganda. And it turned out we were right. In the United States, Germany, and the USSR, a new, top-secret weapon really was being developed—an atomic weapon. But even we, who had access to top-secret materials, knew virtually nothing about it until 6 August 1945, when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

Back then, we did not know that just a stone’s throw away, a group of specialists from (Soviet nuclear physicist Ivan) Kurchatov’s team was already preparing to search for German atomic secrets. This team had the highest authority, for at that time the main chief of our atomic operations was Lavrentiy Beriya himself, and other related special committees were being directed by powerful organizers such as Vannikov and Malyshev. We did not know that in addition to the allied armies heading toward our troops from the west, there were also special missions being sent out to seize German rocket technology and rocket specialists, search for nuclear physicists, and seize everything that had been done in Germany on the new scientific frontiers—first and foremost in the fields of guided missiles, nuclear fission, and radar.

SMERSH teams investigated the ruins of the Auer Gesselschaft uranium processing plant near Berlin after the USAAF bombed it in an effort to keep the materiel being prepared there from falling into Soviet hands. SMERSH personnel also accompanied the Red Army in its offensive in northern Korea. The Soviet nuclear program got a considerable boost from what it captured in Korea as well as the better known war booty from eastern Europe.”[/b]

https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-pu ... nd-people/

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-a ... -2009-0036

https://tvseans.az/en/person/13028/boris-certok

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/worl ... at-99.html

---------------------

Image

But....but.....but.......Conspiracy theory! Heisenberg! Farm Hall! The Germans were nowhere close to a bomb! The Japanese did nothing! La-la-la-I-can't-hear-you!!!


This is just another mischaracterization of what was actually written in this book. It reads in what's not there.

For example, you include this:

...there were also special missions being sent out to seize German rocket technology and rocket specialists, search for nuclear physicists, and seize everything that had been done in Germany on the new scientific frontiers—first and foremost in the fields of guided missiles, nuclear fission, and radar.

All the Allied powers, the Soviets included, looked for and gathered documents, did interviews, and collected materials on guided missiles, nuclear whatever, and radar.

The US and Britain ignored radar as the Germans were hopelessly behind what they already were using. For example, the US already had developed monopulse radar (R. Page at the NRL) and by 1945 was implementing operational systems like the SCR 545. The Germans had nothing compatible to the SCR 584 (and British equivalents) or the SCR 720 radar for nightfighters. The US dumped 1.5 times more cash into radar and electronics development than they did into the Manhattan Project.
The Russians had received lend lease copies of most of these radars and like the US and Britain, dumped the German stuff they captured as antiquated and outdated.
Another example is that the US was largely using FM radio sets by 1945 due to their superior signal quality. The Germans were still mainly, almost entirely, using AM sets.

In guided missiles, the US and Britain used virtually nothing the Germans developed, with the possible exception of some engine designs. They didn't copy any of the German guidance systems, already were testing guided missiles using propulsion systems that were streets ahead of the Germans like in the use of solid fuels. Germany used diglycol, a double base nitrocellouse propellant that was obsolete by 1945 as their only solid fuel. The US already had fuels like GALCIT 53 and Thiokol sulfurized rubber based propellants that were vastly superior.

The USN had already tried a live fire of a Air-to-air missile using television and MCLOS guidance towards the end of 1944 off Cape May NJ as part of project Gorgon. So, they were equal or ahead of the Germans in that field. The X-4 didn't even warrant a study program in the US or Britain.

Yes, the Allies did look to see what Germany was doing and had done, but often found the Germans weren't ahead of them, but rather behind, sometimes hopelessly behind.

For example, the FIAT teams found that German machinists didn't use chip breakers when they ground tooling for metal work, something that was standard US practice. Yes, the US looked at mundane things like that too.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 16 Feb 2024 16:26

And, the conspiracy theorists just keep on coming out of the woodwork.

Here is another one, an American First World War veteran who ran a technical intelligence operation for US Army Ordnance during WWII in concert with certain elements in British intelligence. Colonel John Keck toed the line inasmuch as he stated that in spite of what his operation had learned, the Manhattan Project still beat the Germans to the finish line. But that is just about the only thing he said that is consistent with the ALSOS - Samuel Goudsmit narrative that has been obediently parroted by nearly all of the Cold War era English language histories, and which is similarly and obediently regurgitated by the experts on this site.

So, let's have a look at what this conspiracy theorist had to say in 1945 before joining forces with all of the other frauds down through the decades.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ordnance Technical Intelligence press release. August 1945. [NARA RG 498, Microfilm MP63-9 0137, Frames 623–624]

Ordnance OTI

For Immediate Release

For over two years, “detectives” of the Army Ordnance Department kept close tabs on German progress in the development of atomic weapons
, it was revealed today by Lt. Col. John A. Keck, Chief Enemy Technical Intelligence Branch, Technical Division, Ordnance Service, TSFET.

“This shadowing of German science began in 1942,” said Col. Keck, “when several Ordnance Officers, including myself, commenced work with British Intelligence in the United Kingdom.
During the period before D-Day, allied agents on the continent were able to obtain from German proving grounds and research laboratories, information which gave definite evidence of steady progress in the atomic field. For some time, the race between German and American science was a close one, and had the Nazis been able to reach their goal, the outcome of the European war might have been entirely different.”

Atoms had top priority on Col. Keck’s list when he arrived in France with the 1st Army on D-Day. Information at his disposal gave several leads to the location of experimental stations in this line, but in the process of following them up, he hit several discouraging blind alleys. The first road took him to Cherbourg, where the absence of atomic proving grounds was somewhat compensated by the discovery of V-Bomb launching sites. Throughout the Normandy and Northern France campaigns, his searches gave little in the way of results. However, when the breakthrough in Germany got underway, the evidence began to pile up, culminating in the discovery of the great Nazi proving ground at Hillersleben. Here, it was learned that the Germans had gone far in the development of atomic bombs.

“However,” said Col. Keck, “they weren’t able to go far enough for several reasons, particularly the fact that they didn’t have the facilities with which to conduct their experiments, and that our saturation bombing raids would throw their program far behind schedule. Nevertheless their progress was considerable and indicated that they were coming very close to the solution of the problem.”

We were fully aware of their plans in this field, for sometimes whatever information we got from our agents went to the proper authorities in the States. This information was undoubtedly put at the disposal of our own scientists. However, it’s interesting to note that our knowledge of enemy experiments in the atomic field far exceeded our knowledge of the closely-guarded experiments in the United States.

----------------------------------------------------

Dr. Rider comments in The Book Which Shall Not Be Named That No One Here WIll Read For Whatever "Reason":

The U.S. Army Ordnance Technical Intelligence office publicly stated that evidence proved “the Germans had gone far in the development of atomic bombs.” What information were “allied agents on the continent... able to obtain from German proving grounds and research laboratories” during the war? What nuclear-related work was discovered at Hillersleben at the end of the war? Can the relevant U.S. reports be found at NARA or elsewhere?

Keck and the Ordnance Technical Intelligence office described an extended program to monitor German nuclear progress and gave accurate information about Hillersleben, Erich Schumann, and other aspects of German research in this and other press releases. As shown on the next page, other U.S. government officials later forced them to deny all of that.

-----------------------------------------------------

Erich Schumann, you say. Hmmm. Who was Schumann? Oh, that's right. Goudsmit told us all about him when he described Schumann as "a second rate physicist whose main interest was the physics of piano strings".

Except....

Erich Schumann. 2 October 1940.Unclassified draft article on explosives research for popular publication [Bundesarchiv Milit¨ararchiv Freiburg N822/17].

[...] The state of detonation is characterized by the fact that the activation energy is supplied to the explosive by a shock wave, whereby the energy released during the decay of the substance supports the progression of the shock wave. It is easy to see that in a sufficiently large explosive device, when the wave propagation and explosive decay are coupled together, a steady state is formed which is characteristic of all detonative phenomena.

The propagation velocity of this stationary decomposition is called the detonation velocity. Since it is relatively easy to measure, there is extensive measured information available for it, which is one of the most valuable possessions of experimental explosives physics, since the detonation velocity is the only really physical major measurement which can be used today to characterize an explosive.

The described energetic conditions in the molecular bond of explosives are basically the same as we know them from the nuclear bond of the atomic nucleus. Although a very large amount of energy is released during nuclear disintegration, the atomic nucleus has great stability, because a considerable amount of activation work must be done to initiate disintegration. In this comparison, which only covers the qualitative energetic conditions, the nuclear disintegration possible today corresponds completely to the simple disintegration of explosive molecules. Since nuclear energies are at least 6 orders of magnitude greater than the chemical binding energies from which explosives derive their power, nuclear reactions would be unimaginably explosive if it were possible to trigger the nuclear reaction via detonations, i.e. by shock waves. Quite apart from the historically far-reaching significance of such a possibility of putting a substance of truly gigantic destructive power into human hands, we would then be able to produce matter under thermodynamic conditions that otherwise occur only in very few places in the universe. There is no doubt that the nuclear-reactive explosive would be a physical reality if it were possible to generate a shock wave of sufficient intensity to initiate nuclear disintegration. However, since the activation energy of even the heaviest, least stable atoms is still measured in millions of volts, we have no way of generating such an intense shock wave. The nuclear reactions lack the gradation of activation energy that is present in explosives, from early explosives to safety explosives; this makes it possible to cause extremely stable chemical compounds to undergo detonative decay by means of almost arbitrarily small impulses via the initial substances. [...]

For the blast effect, not only the thermodynamic state variables at the discontinuity point, which characterizes the detonation front, are decisive, but also to a decisive extent its further spatial course. However, there is no sufficient theoretical basis for the calculation of spatial fields of the state variables prevailing in the windrows. Fortunately, the X-ray flash technique now provides the field progression of one of the most important state variables, namely the gas density of the plume, by experimental means. Since the density jump at the detonation front is accessible by the X-ray flash method of measurement, one does not only get an insight in the disintegration process, but also, through the further spatial density course, into the vapor flow phenomena which are decisive for the effect. The working capacity of the vapors is not only determined by the pressure jump in the detonation front, but essentially by the pressure curve over time at the surface of the explosive. However, this is given by the flow processes of the vapors, which can be followed on the basis of X-ray flash photographs. There is no doubt that the experimental results obtained using the X-ray flash method will provide the thermodynamic knowledge needed to calculate the flow processes at pressures of over 100,000 atm and gas densities of the order of magnitude of those of solid bodies in the vapors. Thus, the introduction of the X-ray flash method into explosives physics, which also originates from my institute), should be of fruitful importance beyond the narrower framework of explosives research for the entire physics of matter under extreme conditions.

[...] The thoughts just expressed in the explanation of the explosive concept already suggest a theory of the entire effect of explosives. However, such a general theory must not only cover the processes on the surface of the explosive itself, but also effects at points further away. In addition to the direct effect of vapor, the cause of such indirect explosive effects can be the shock wave in the medium adjacent to the explosive or on the explosive surface, which accelerates and then causes ballistically acting matter components. The questions arising from the different arrangements of the explosives depending on the intended effect cannot be discussed here in detail because of the significance of special arrangements in terms of weapons technology. (A reference to the internal arrangements of future atomic and thermonuclear weapons, eg, gun-type, linear implosion, biconic, spherical implosion and so on. — WP) Even in the case of indirect effects, the processes on the surface of the explosives, as the decisive source of power in any case, will have to be the starting point for further investigations. The result of the above considerations can be summarized as showing ways and indicating investigation methods to classify the detonative phenomena within the general framework of physics. Such a treatment of explosives issues from a purely physical point of view has the necessary primary consequence of creating physical measuring methods for the variables determining the effect and handling. The further pursuit of these methods must lead to a general theory of blasting effects which allows the sequence and effects of each blasting arrangement to be controlled mathematically and thus provides the blasting technique with valuable documentation. Retrospectively on the general physics, the results of blasting physics will again bring new insights, since in the detonation process, matter is present under conditions that cannot be experimentally realized in other physical phenomena.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly and obviously, when Schumann wrote that in 1940, he was in on the historical fraud, too. The previously mentioned Col. Keck was so blatantly lying that he got called on the carpet by some high muckety mucks in US-UK intelligence, who told him to....well, to shut up. Immediately.

Monthly Intelligence Summary. July–August 1945. [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 168, Folder 202.3-1 LONDON OFFICE: Combined Intell Rpts.]

IX CENSORSHIP. [...]

e. The first wave of publicity after the use of the atom bomb brought forth a story from Lt. Col. John A. KECK, Chief of the Enemy Technical Intelligence Branch Ordnance Services, ETO, in which KECK purports to have conducted intelligence operations to determine the scope of enemy work on an atomic bomb. Col. KECK was interviewed by a representative of this office and admitted that he had not performed such a mission but denied having given the story to the Press. KECK stated that the story was released by the Public Relations Section of the Ordnance Services. Both KECK and the PRO were warned against making further statements on this subject.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The more I read about all of this, the more amazed I am at the depth, the scale, and the sophistication of this Conspiracy Theory. So many people, so many countries, so many agencies and institutes and national militaries were involved that it just boggles my mind, ya know?
Last edited by williamjpellas on 16 Feb 2024 16:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by NSpencer » 16 Feb 2024 16:36

For conspiracy theorists, it takes very little to boggle their minds. Tell me how about rain and how it washes away radiation, instead of just moving it/radiation, around.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 16 Feb 2024 17:02

NSpencer wrote:
16 Feb 2024 16:36
For conspiracy theorists, it takes very little to boggle their minds. Tell me how about rain and how it washes away radiation, instead of just moving it/radiation, around.
Yes. Because original Top Secret British and American intelligence reports from WWII which were only declassified since 1995 amount to "very little". Or were you thinking that you would be able to dismiss me as just another uneducated 'murican ignoramus (unlike you, naturally) who has watched a few documentaries on The Hitler Channel and that's that? Speaking of documentaries, the UK-based History Hit Network, which owns the Timeline Documentaries YouTube channel, ran a program that includes a great deal of the same information being discussed here, along with many other sources. Are they in on it, too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPS8EkGaAZA

As was mentioned previously in both this thread and in the other one on AHF which is now locked, former MIT and US Navy scientist Dr. Todd Rider discusses the issue of detectable levels of fallout at the reported WWII German nuclear test sites in considerable detail in Forgotten Creators, known henceforth in this thread as The Book Which Shall Not Be Named That No One Here Will Read For Whatever "Reason". Doubtless because you're so confident you have the right of this issue that you just "know" there is nothing else whatsoever for you to learn, amirite? By the way, your own credentials are....what, exactly?

I will return later today to post a longer excerpt from The Forbidden Book, but for now, you can view the condensed version here, beginning at slide #94. https://secureservercdn.net/198.71.233. ... -01-27.pdf

PS---and this has also been mentioned and linked previously---a Chinese PhD wrote a rather good summary of Rider's findings last year and posted it on the internet for all the world to see. I guess he's just another idiot who is easily taken in by the "very little" that it takes to "boggle the minds" of "conspiracy theorists".

https://www-zhihu-com.translate.goog/qu ... _tr_pto=sc

Right?
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Feb 2024 22:45

NSpencer wrote:
16 Feb 2024 16:36
For conspiracy theorists, it takes very little to boggle their minds. Tell me how about rain and how it washes away radiation, instead of just moving it/radiation, around.
I'm sure the people that would like to move back onto Bikini atoll would love that news...

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by daveshoup2MarDiv » 16 Feb 2024 23:22

T. A. Gardner wrote:
16 Feb 2024 22:45
NSpencer wrote:
16 Feb 2024 16:36
For conspiracy theorists, it takes very little to boggle their minds. Tell me how about rain and how it washes away radiation, instead of just moving it/radiation, around.
I'm sure the people that would like to move back onto Bikini atoll would love that news...
Oh, right, like there's such a place, named after a swimsuit! Come on ... obviously, Bikini Atoll is just part of the cover-up! :o

Documentary evidence, linked below, shows the British had "special" weapons before ANY of the other combatants in WW II:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _1782.jpeg

Deny it if you will! :roll:

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 17 Feb 2024 01:01

I am going to post Rider's analysis regarding the residual radiation associated with the Ohrdruf nuclear test detonations in March, 1945, but this is the final time. I am doing this for the sake of any newbies and lurkers, because by this point it ought to be manifestly obvious to any remotely objective reader that nearly all of the people in this thread who say that they are asking questions are not reading the answers. I know this because they keep asking the same questions and offering the same "objections", over and over and over.

----------------------------------------------

Initial radiation from the explosion

People who were very close to the test site would have been exposed to the initial radiation (gamma, neutrons, and beta) released during the actual explosion. For a fission explosion of 200–350 tons, the lethality (10 Grays or 1000 rads) radius for this prompt radiation is ∼ 500 meters, very comparable to the blast radius [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, p. 333]. Thus anyone present on the field where the device was tested would have been either killed immediately or left injured and dying from the blast, radiation, and heat. This is highly consistent with the reports of Ilyichev, Grothmann, Werner, and Wachsmut.

If the blast radius was 500–600 meters as reported by Ilyichev, Wachsmut’s estimate of 700 bodies was correct, and those victims had been uniformly spread out within an area πR2 ∼ 785,000– 1,130,000 m2 around the device when it was tested, the spacing would have been

∼ 1100–1600 m2 per person on average (D.52)

or

∼ 33–40 m between people if uniformly spread out (D.53)

Thus 700 people could have easily fit within the blast radius, even if they were spread out. It seems highly unlikely that the detonation would have been accidentally triggered at an unexpected time before people had had time to take cover. A far more plausible explanation is that the SS scattered POWs around the test area to serve as human guinea pigs to measure the effects at varying distances from the explosion.

Indeed, Ilyichev’s report appears to suggest that the SS made detailed correlations of prisoners’ positions before the explosion and their conditions after the explosion (p. 3907):

“Prisoners of war who were near the epicenter of the explosion died, often without leaving a trace. Prisoners of war who were in the area beyond the center of the explosion have burns on their face and body, the strength of which depends on their position in relation to the epicenter of the explosion.”

It is well documented that POWs were used as human test subjects for new nerve agents [Tucker 2006, p. 51] and for new biological weapons.31 Thus the allegations made separately by Ilyichev and Wachsmut are highly consistent with what is known to have taken place in other Third Reich programs to develop weapons of mass destruction.

In fact, if the statements of Grothmann and Wachsmut are correct, the large size of the explosion and the large number of casualties for the very small amount of fission fuel used apparently surprised even the SS.

Radioactive fallout from the explosion

From the explosive yield and amount of fuel fissioned, one can also calculate the amount of radioactive fallout. The radioactive fallout decays rapidly, emitting 80% of its total radiation within the first 24 hours, and gradually emitting the remaining 20% over the following days, months, and years [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, p. 397]. Radioactive fallout from a 1 kiloton fission explosion, spread uniformly over a flat area of 1 square mile, would cause a radiation exposure 3 feet above the ground (the approximate center of an adult human) of 2900 rads per hour 1 hour after the explosion, or 21,750 rads total within the first 24 hours after the explosion [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, pp. 390, 395—24 hour cumulative dose is dose rate at 1 hour multiplied by 7.5 hours due to decay]. Converting that information from kilotons to tons, from square miles to km2 , and from rads to Grays (Gy, where 1 Gy=100 rads), one finds:

1 ton / km3 =⇒ 0.0751 Gy / hr at 1 hour averaged over area (D.54)

=⇒ 0.563 Gy within 24 hours averaged over area (D.55)

As calculated in Section D.15.4, the explosive yield had a geometric mean of 200–350 tons (note that this is referring to the first explosion and not the second in the same general area a few days later -- WP). The area over which the corresponding amount of fallout would be distributed could vary significantly depending on local winds and topography, but a plausible ballpark estimate for the affected region might be a ∼ 10 km × ∼ 10 km area, or ∼ 100 km2. Taken together, those estimates give an average of 2–3.5 tons/km2, and Eqs. (D.54)–(D.55) can be scaled accordingly:

2–3.5 tons / km2 =⇒ 0.150–0.263 Gy hr at 1 hour averaged over area (D.56)

=⇒ 1.13–1.97 Gy within 24 hours averaged over area (D.57)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

More to follow, not that any of the self professed "skeptics" are actually reading this, and not that they have any of their own sources even if they are.
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 17 Feb 2024 01:13

Here are more excerpts from Dr. Todd Rider's analysis of the residual radiation at the Ohrdruf test site in Thuringia, Germany, following a pair of prototype nuclear weapon detonations in early March 1945. As mentioned upthread, this analysis cites the standard reference on this subject, which is Glasstone and Dolan's 1977 work.

---------------------------------------------------

Gamma and beta radiation emitted by fission products in the fallout would begin to produce noticeable symptoms of radiation sickness after a cumulative exposure of ∼ 1 Gy, very serious illness at ∼ 2 Gy, and fairly consistent lethality (within hours or days after exposure) at ∼ 10 Gy [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, pp. 575–587, using 1 rad ≈ 1 rem or 1 Gray ≈ 1 Sievert for gamma, beta, and neutrons]. Thus the expected average dose from Eq. (D.57) falls perfectly within that 1–2 Gy window for noticeable but readily survivable radiation sickness.

(Soviet GRU intelligence chief Ivan) Ilyichev reported that most the civilian population in the surrounding area had been evacuated. Someone who remained in the surrounding area (within the ∼ 100 km2 general area but not at the test site), and who was exposed to the fallout with the first day or so after the test by being outside or consuming water or food that had been outside, might have experienced mild symptoms of radiation sickness that would have resolved themselves within a matter of days. People who remained in the surrounding area but did not have much exposure to the fallout may not have had any noticeable symptoms.

In the area immediately around the test site, the radioactive fallout and dosage would be significantly higher than in the larger surrounding region. Just how much higher would again depend on the local winds and topography, and also on the relative sizes of the areas in question. Data from a number of U.S. nuclear tests suggests that the fallout dosage immediately around a test site is ∼ 10–100 times higher than that in the much larger surrounding area that receives significant fallout, with a geometric mean value of ∼ 30 times higher [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, pp. 419–439]. Using that mean value to multiply Eqs. (D.56)–(D.57), ballpark values for the radiation dose at the Thuringia test site would be:

4.50–7.89 Gy / hr at 1 hour at test site (D.58)

33.9–59.1 Gy within 24 hours at test site (D.59)

As mentioned, those estimates use the estimated geometric mean from the fallout patterns, and the actual values might have been between ∼ 3 times smaller and ∼ 3 times larger than the results in Eqs. (D.58)–(D.59). Since a cumulative dose of ∼ 10 Gy will cause fairly consistent lethality within hours or days after exposure, even a person who was fully protected from the initial radiation, heat, and blast of the explosion but then visited the test site in the hours after the explosion could rapidly acquire a lethal dose. This factor may help account in part for the lack of later witnesses.

Based on the above analysis (which was derived only from the known physics of fission explosions and Ilyichev’s statement that the blast radius was 500–600 meters), the explosion’s prompt radiation at the test site, the radioactive fallout at the test site within the first 24 hours, and the radioactive fallout in nearby towns within 24 hours would easily fit Ilyichev’s description that a “massive radioactive effect was observed.”

.....

Expected radioisotopes after 75+ years

After 75+ years, the radioactivity of the fallout would have dropped to ∼ 2×10−9 of its radioactivity 1 hour after the explosion [Glasstone and Dolan 1977, p. 393]. Using Eqs. (D.56) and (D.58) with this information, the residual radioactivity would be

Averaged over area: 3.0–5.3 × 10−10 Gy / hr at 75 years (D.63)

2.6–4.6 × 10−6 Gy / yr at 75 years (D.64)

At test site: 8–16 × 10−9 Gy / hr at 75 years (D.65)

7–14 × 10−5 Gy / yr at 75 years (D.66)

Since typical radioactive background from terrestrial, solar, and cosmic sources is at least 1–2×10−3 Gy/yr, the residual radioactivity at the test site would be at least ∼ 10–30 times smaller than the natural background and hence extremely difficult to detect.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

More to follow....
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 17 Feb 2024 01:22

More from Dr. Todd Rider's analysis of the residual radiation produced by the pair of German nuclear weapons tests near Ohrdruf in early March, 1945.

-------------------------------

Put differently, the estimated initial values that went into calculating this final value of the residual radioactivity would have to be off by a factor of ∼ 10–30 times, and in the right direction, in order for the residual radioactivity to be detectable above the natural background level.For that to have been the case, the explosive yield would have to have been ∼ 10–30 times larger than was estimated here, or ∼ 2–10 kilotons, which seems highly unlikely given the descriptions of the test, and also the German military’s logical desire to minimize the fission fuel consumed and the radioactivity produced on German soil by the test. Alternatively, for the residual radioactivity to be detectable with the explosive yield estimated here, the fallout would have to have been confined to an area ∼ 10–30 times smaller than has been assumed here, which also seems highly unlikely. In fact, after 75+ years of water, wind, and human activity, the fallout could easily have become scattered over a significantly larger area than the initial area assumed here, and/or become buried to varying depths in the ground, making it even harder to detect than has been calculated here. As discussed above, the radioactivity in the larger surrounding area would be even lower than that at the test site, by a factor of ∼ 10–100.

From fundamental physics, one must therefore conclude that measurements of residual radioactivity cannot be used to try to prove or disprove whether the March 1945 Thuringian nuclear test occurred. This same conclusion, for the same reasons, also applies to the Baltic, Polish, or any other possible wartime German nuclear tests.

Nonetheless, it is possible that methods other than radiation sensors might be used to detect residual products left by the test. For that approach to have some chance of success, the residual products should be (a) unique to the nuclear test, and (b) present in the largest quantities possible. The first criterion rules out common explosives such as TNT and RDX, as well as common metals such as aluminum and iron, that presumably would have made up large fractions of the nuclear device, but that could also have been left by conventional weapons that have been stored, tested, or used at that location for more than a century.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Rider goes on to describe the likelihood that any unfissioned uranium could still be detected in the soil at or near the reported test sites, and so on.

Again and for the umpteenth time, all of this, along with a truly enormous amount of original archival documents and other historical and scientific evidence, is included in The Forbidden Book Whose Name Must Not Be Mentioned Here, Nor Ought It To Be Read By Any Of The Learned Experts On This Site.

So, whatever. Read it or don't. Have a nice day, "scholars".
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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 17 Feb 2024 01:41

Oh, right, like there's such a place, named after a swimsuit! Come on ... obviously, Bikini Atoll is just part of the cover-up! :o

Documentary evidence, linked below, shows the British had "special" weapons before ANY of the other combatants in WW II:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _1782.jpeg

Deny it if you will! :roll:



Although it is anecdotal and there is little if any supporting documentation (as far as I know) which has surfaced to date, there are stories of some kind of enormous explosion(s) from WWII British weapons being tested in the Australian outback. If this actually occurred, my guess is that it may have been one or more versions of the Torpex bombs that were used near the end of the war in Europe, or possibly fuel-air explosives. I corresponded briefly with a former CIA researcher who suggested that it might have been a test of a uranium-233 atomic bomb, perhaps the product of a clandestine military project, or more than one, since the Manhattan Engineer District considered developing a weapon which would utilize that manmade element but apparently gave up on that path pretty quickly. I mention it here in the interest of thoroughness and just in case someone else has any reliable information or would like to dig into it themselves.

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Re: German Atomic Weapons Program

Post by williamjpellas » 17 Feb 2024 05:17

I understand, that you dont understand history, or that Karlsch book (sic) its a tactical hollow charge, not a strategic nuke.

This is a common misunderstanding.

What was tested at Ohrdruf was a pair of strategic nuclear weapon prototypes, but loaded with very small amounts of fissile material. A full combat load for these weapons would have been between 5 and 10 kg of HEU. Various German sources give the figure of 100 grams---yes, grams, not kilograms---though it is not clear from what I have read whether this was all that was present in the weapon "pits", or if this was all that actually burned or fissioned. The main purpose of these tests was to ensure that the highly troublesome implosion bomb detonators on which Kurt Diebner and many other German scientists and engineers had worked for months would fire reliably if the Germans chose to deploy completed bombs.

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