the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
bradpit
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 03:48
Location: china

the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by bradpit » 19 Feb 2024 03:58

the german artillery Gustav ,Dora, Thorn,Adam&Eva and so on ,why not use all these big guns to stalingrad? the reason seems not clear at all.

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 4475
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Cult Icon » 19 Feb 2024 15:14

Good question and you make a good point. Glantz does not even mention them in his Stalingrad trilogy.

MLW
Member
Posts: 644
Joined: 12 Jan 2008 04:35
Location: Maryland

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by MLW » 19 Feb 2024 21:42

After Sevastopol, the siege artillery went with Eleventh Army to Army Group North. The siege gun units were reorganized enroute. At Leningrad there were two 60cm Karl mortars and the 80cm Dora. Neither fired rounds. No siege guns went to Stalingrad.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4512
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Aida1 » 19 Feb 2024 22:37

bradpit wrote:
19 Feb 2024 03:58
the german artillery Gustav ,Dora, Thorn,Adam&Eva and so on ,why not use all these big guns to stalingrad? the reason seems not clear at all.
Would be factually not feasible as long distance movement was by rail and getting to Stalingrad by rail would be impossible as long as the railway bridge over the Don was not repaired and the railroad beyond it regauged to normal gauge.
The repair was never finished as the russian offensive came before that.

User avatar
bradpit
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 03:48
Location: china

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by bradpit » 20 Feb 2024 03:43

When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences? the OKW no one remember this successful example? it is difficult to understand this point. the Russia general staff do a good job to share the experience of the war.
these big guns fired no rounds in Lenningrad ,i guess the reason for the Russian counter strike or too far from the city?? maybe lack ammunition and so
on ,maybe the barrel were already scrapped. these big guns only used once. what a waste.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4512
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Aida1 » 20 Feb 2024 09:05

bradpit wrote:
20 Feb 2024 03:43
When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences? the OKW no one remember this successful example? it is difficult to understand this point. the Russia general staff do a good job to share the experience of the war.
these big guns fired no rounds in Lenningrad ,i guess the reason for the Russian counter strike or too far from the city?? maybe lack ammunition and so
on ,maybe the barrel were already scrapped. these big guns only used once. what a waste.
You will need to accept that the big guns could not materially get there because of the destruction of the railway bridge over the Don. :roll:
I gave details about the railways to Stalingrad in another thread.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Art » 20 Feb 2024 10:03

bradpit wrote:
20 Feb 2024 03:43
When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences?
Were there any targets at Stalingrad which could warrant employment of such heavy guns? Sevastopol and Leningrad area had heavy coastal batteries and concrete fortifications.
Aida1 wrote:
20 Feb 2024 09:05
You will need to accept that the big guns could not materially get there because of the destruction of the railway bridge over the Don. :roll:
I gave details about the railways to Stalingrad in another thread.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was a second rail line going from Salsk to Stalingrad. Don't know exactly to what point it was operational.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4512
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Aida1 » 20 Feb 2024 12:36

Art wrote:
20 Feb 2024 10:03
bradpit wrote:
20 Feb 2024 03:43
When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences?
Were there any targets at Stalingrad which could warrant employment of such heavy guns? Sevastopol and Leningrad area had heavy coastal batteries and concrete fortifications.
Aida1 wrote:
20 Feb 2024 09:05
You will need to accept that the big guns could not materially get there because of the destruction of the railway bridge over the Don. :roll:
I gave details about the railways to Stalingrad in another thread.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was a second rail line going from Salsk to Stalingrad. Don't know exactly to what point it was operational.
The rail line Salsk-Stalingrad is dealt with on pp 102-105 of ' Schienenstrang nach Stalingrad'. On 22 september the regauging of the stretch to Kotelnikowo was finished and was then operated by FBA 22 . The regauging work on the further stretch to Tinguta suffered from heavy russian air attacks so it was 3 november 1942 when the stretch Salsk-Tinguta could be operated with Re7 in normal gauge which is still at some distance from Stalingrad. So there could materially never be a deployment of the heavy guns to Stalingrad and russian air attacks would probably have been a serious problem too even if regauging work got far enough quicker than historically .

User avatar
bradpit
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 03:48
Location: china

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by bradpit » 21 Feb 2024 03:16

Art wrote:
20 Feb 2024 10:03
bradpit wrote:
20 Feb 2024 03:43
When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences?
Were there any targets at Stalingrad which could warrant employment of such heavy guns? Sevastopol and Leningrad area had heavy coastal batteries and concrete fortifications.
Aida1 wrote:
20 Feb 2024 09:05
You will need to accept that the big guns could not materially get there because of the destruction of the railway bridge over the Don. :roll:
I gave details about the railways to Stalingrad in another thread.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was a second rail line going from Salsk to Stalingrad. Don't know exactly to what point it was operational.
1. if german big guns arrived stalingrad,they could level the gaint factory there. maybe they thought it was a big gun vs little birds ,or something
not conventional. but they waste more time and soilder's lives in street fight.
2. the threats from the air maybe the main reason of this big guns could not used anymore in east front. any
authority resource from german view of point? they could move in the night,but difficult to cover in steppe.maybe need several flak division to protect
them . in critical moment, german always lack manpower, weapons, fuel and so on.

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 4475
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Cult Icon » 21 Feb 2024 04:34

Air Fleet IV was operating at Stalingrad (strategic & tactical recon, medium bombers, dive bombers, heavy fighters, fighters). They had bombed the city flat. There were some factory sites that were more reinforced though.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4512
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Aida1 » 21 Feb 2024 08:46

bradpit wrote:
21 Feb 2024 03:16
Art wrote:
20 Feb 2024 10:03
bradpit wrote:
20 Feb 2024 03:43
When Palus In trouble in stalingrad, he did not know these siege artilley? his staff did't research the Sevastopol experiences?
Were there any targets at Stalingrad which could warrant employment of such heavy guns? Sevastopol and Leningrad area had heavy coastal batteries and concrete fortifications.
Aida1 wrote:
20 Feb 2024 09:05
You will need to accept that the big guns could not materially get there because of the destruction of the railway bridge over the Don. :roll:
I gave details about the railways to Stalingrad in another thread.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was a second rail line going from Salsk to Stalingrad. Don't know exactly to what point it was operational.
1. if german big guns arrived stalingrad,they could level the gaint factory there. maybe they thought it was a big gun vs little birds ,or something
not conventional. but they waste more time and soilder's lives in street fight.
2. the threats from the air maybe the main reason of this big guns could not used anymore in east front. any
authority resource from german view of point? they could move in the night,but difficult to cover in steppe.maybe need several flak division to protect
them . in critical moment, german always lack manpower, weapons, fuel and so on.
You need to accept that the germans could never move the big guns to Stalingrad as it was materially impossible.
And not necessary as ruins are good defensive positions. Siege guns are there to destroy strong bunkers.

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3553
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by T. A. Gardner » 27 Feb 2024 02:07

bradpit wrote:
19 Feb 2024 03:58
the german artillery Gustav ,Dora, Thorn,Adam&Eva and so on ,why not use all these big guns to stalingrad? the reason seems not clear at all.
The biggest reason would be there was no operable rail line for the Germans all the way to Stalingrad, or even near it. The rail line available terminated at Stalino and from there trucks and wagons moved supplies forward.

To move a massive artillery piece like a Dora there would have required rebuilding the existing one-track route or building an entirely new one. Either way that would have taken months to finish and then several thousand engineers would be required to build the sidings and such for the gun to be placed on. Once that was done, the gun, ammunition, etc., and crew could be brought in and set up for firing.

For all that effort, the Germans would have been far better off using all that to build a solid line into Stalingrad to haul supplies and replacements.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4512
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by Aida1 » 27 Feb 2024 12:41

T. A. Gardner wrote:
27 Feb 2024 02:07
bradpit wrote:
19 Feb 2024 03:58
the german artillery Gustav ,Dora, Thorn,Adam&Eva and so on ,why not use all these big guns to stalingrad? the reason seems not clear at all.
The biggest reason would be there was no operable rail line for the Germans all the way to Stalingrad, or even near it. The rail line available terminated at Stalino and from there trucks and wagons moved supplies forward.

That is partially incorrect as detailed here.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was certainly no normal gauge line yet all the way to Stalingrad as the broadgage stretch starting east of the Don could only be regauged when the Don railway bridge repair was finished which was expected around december 1 1942. But there was certainly the possibility since 26 september 1942 of driving trains on normal gauge all the way to Tschir.
At Tschir everything had to be transshipped on trucks and then driven over the Don roadbridges and transshipped again on the broad gauge line with limited capacity on the other side.
So in the historical timeframe before 6 th Army was cut off there was effectively no possibility of moving the big guns to Stalingrad.

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3553
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by T. A. Gardner » 27 Feb 2024 16:55

Aida1 wrote:
27 Feb 2024 12:41
T. A. Gardner wrote:
27 Feb 2024 02:07
bradpit wrote:
19 Feb 2024 03:58
the german artillery Gustav ,Dora, Thorn,Adam&Eva and so on ,why not use all these big guns to stalingrad? the reason seems not clear at all.
The biggest reason would be there was no operable rail line for the Germans all the way to Stalingrad, or even near it. The rail line available terminated at Stalino and from there trucks and wagons moved supplies forward.

That is partially incorrect as detailed here.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=274490
There was certainly no normal gauge line yet all the way to Stalingrad as the broadgage stretch starting east of the Don could only be regauged when the Don railway bridge repair was finished which was expected around december 1 1942. But there was certainly the possibility since 26 september 1942 of driving trains on normal gauge all the way to Tschir.
At Tschir everything had to be transshipped on trucks and then driven over the Don roadbridges and transshipped again on the broad gauge line with limited capacity on the other side.
So in the historical timeframe before 6 th Army was cut off there was effectively no possibility of moving the big guns to Stalingrad.
Well, wherever it stopped at some particular date, it was something like 200 miles / 300 km short of Stalingrad, and that means it isn't happening any time soon.

miserablevlad
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 23 Dec 2023 16:28
Location: UK

Re: the big guns after Sevastopol fallen

Post by miserablevlad » 08 Mar 2024 11:43

The logistics required to get a big gun there and defend it from air attack were far more than the results could ever have warranted. Besides,did the Dora achieve anything at Sevastopol?

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”