Steroid use by the germans

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thorwald77
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#31

Post by thorwald77 » 19 Oct 2007, 22:50

Mark V wrote:
Zebedee wrote:
Christoph Awender wrote: Pervitin (a Methamphetamin) was the most used medicament given out to troops by the battalion medical officer.
Does anyone know how this was actually taken? I've heard reference to 'tank chocolate' and knew it meant 'speed' - but was it actually taken in chocolate? The Heer slang named sunflower seeds 'Russian chocolate' so I hope you can appreciate why I'm a little confused :)

Thanks,

Zeb
Hi.

I don't know about "laced" chocolate containing amphetamines. I believe they added caffeine. Adding speed to regular consumable like chocolate would be inefficient administration of powerfull drug, plus very effective way to screw your soldiers brains for good. The shit will drill an hole to brain if used regularily for a long time. And i don't mean addiction.

Pervitin was in tablet form, containing metamphetamine, plus IIRC some caffeine too.


Regards, Mark V
In Germany 40 years ago I remember older people( + 40 yrs in 1969) saying that speed was sold in the pharmacy, I never tried it, black coffee is strong enough for me.
:P

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#32

Post by Mark V » 19 Oct 2007, 23:00

thorwald77 wrote:
In Germany 40 years ago I remember older people( + 40 yrs in 1969) saying that speed was sold in the pharmacy, I never tried it, black coffee is strong enough for me.
:P
Well, half a century a go you could buy almost everything that has effect on central nervous system over the counter from any pharmacy. No questions asked.

.


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thorwald77
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#33

Post by thorwald77 » 20 Oct 2007, 00:15

Mark V wrote:
thorwald77 wrote:
In Germany 40 years ago I remember older people( + 40 yrs in 1969) saying that speed was sold in the pharmacy, I never tried it, black coffee is strong enough for me.
:P
Well, half a century a go you could buy almost everything that has effect on central nervous system over the counter from any pharmacy. No questions asked.

.
I should point out that I visited Germany at that time as an American college student, Thorwalds fathers family left Prussia for the US in 1886.

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thorwald77
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#34

Post by thorwald77 » 20 Oct 2007, 01:34

This is from a German website with information on drug abuse. The free tranlation of the text reads that amphetamines were allowed by prescription only, after Nov 1939, but in 1941 the goverment wanted to ban their use by civilians, however this was not enforced.

Amphetamin und Methamphetamin waren als Fertigarzneimittel im Deutschen Reich bis zum 6. November
1939 in allen Apotheken rezeptfrei erhältlich. Mit Wirkung vom 7. November 1939 wurden
die beiden Substanzen unter „jedesmaligen“ Rezeptzwang gestellt, das heißt, sie waren nur noch nach
Verschreibung durch einen Arzt erhältlich.7 Mit der Sechsten Verordnung über die Unterstellung
weiterer Stoffe unter die Bestimmungen des Opiumgesetzes vom 12. Juni 1941 (Reichsgesetzblatt I
S. 328) wurden Amphetamin und Methamphetamin mit Wirkung vom 1. Juli 1941 der Aufsicht des
Reichgesundheitsamtes unterstellt und waren nur noch mit einem speziellen Betäubungsmittelrezept
erhältlich. Der weitergehende Wunsch des Reichsgesundheitsamtes, die ärztliche Verschreibung von
Methamphetam „für den zivilen Sektor“ gänzlich zu verbieten, ließ sich nicht durchsetzen.

http://www.drogenkult.net/?file=Speed
In the PDF file at bottom of page

In the 1980's a strict ban on amphetamines was put on the books

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#35

Post by Zebedee » 22 Oct 2007, 13:54

Mark V wrote: Hi.

I don't know about "laced" chocolate containing amphetamines. I believe they added caffeine. Adding speed to regular consumable like chocolate would cause an unnecessary administration of powerfull drug, same time being very inefficient way of delivery. Also you would screw your soldiers brains for good. The shit will drill an hole to brain if used regularily for a long time. And i don't mean addiction.


Pervitin was in tablet form, containing metamphetamine, plus IIRC some caffeine too.


Regards, Mark V
Thank you Mark V. It would make sense that it would be in tablet form - it was the chocolate reference which threw me. :)

All the best,

Zeb

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#36

Post by Mr Holmes » 31 Mar 2008, 04:30

Last night, I had a short debate with my cousin-in-law over whether Hitler was being treated with such substances as well as whether the German military forces were consumers of such substances. I know that alcohol was rationed to soldiers and that alcohol abuse was rife (as in all armies throughout history). But in none of the books I have on World War Two is there even a sentence devoted to this issue. More recently, for example, Browning in "Ordinary Men" discusses such alcohol abuse amongst the Police Battalionists after the various 'Actions' as a way of coping with the 'deeds' comitted upon Jewry or other 'subversives'. But he does not state anything of what we would call 'illicit substance abuse'. Neither does Rhodes in his 'Masters of Death'. Cesarani says nothing either, except that in Hungary in 1944 Eichmann was fast becoming an alcoholic, but says nothing of speed which would be needed for extreme and meticulous concentration levels.

My cousin's views were from a documentary he had watched. I retorted that the spoken word as conveyed via a documentary can give off many inaccuracies whereas a book or journal article (apart from poor research or biases) is much more accurate and therefore since I try to read literature that is considered reliable and that no references are made to such consumption, that the documentary he watched was either inaccurate in its assessment or was outright lying or is stating the truth.

I have always known that narcotics use in the 19th and earlier 20th Centuries was particularly widespread and could even be bought over the counter. However, in all my readings (which I know is not as extensive as many of you, but still) I have not come across any such reference that Wehrmacht soldiers were given illicit substances.

I decided to check here and see that it indeed was widespread. However, I have not in any thread seen any references, of incontrovertible proof that there was at least implicit official sanction. The only article I found from AHF is this from Der Spiegel:

http://amphetamines.com/nazi.html

But none of the threads actually give any links. Other books or websites I have read through say nothing of the matter.

Wikipedia on amphetamines has this:
The German military was notorious for their use of methamphetamine in World War II. It is also known that Adolf Hitler was receiving daily shots of a medicine that contained certain essential vitamins and amphetamines. The German pharmaceutical Pervitin is an oral pill of 3 mg which was made available in 1938, but by mid-1941 it became a controlled substance, reportedly because of the amount of time needed for a soldier to rest and recover after use. Military doctors were then given guidelines on how they should issue it.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamines

but as one can easily see, there is this onslaught of language such as 'German military was notorious'; 'it is also known that Adolf', but no references are provided.

As you can fathom, this is almost a matter of honour for me. I will apologise to my cousin for having doubted the documentary's argument and for my part I will rely less on academic books and focus more on documentaries since it seems one has to dig very far to find out about these things when conducting searches. I honestly cannot fathom why someone of the stature of Browning would not even mention in passing such usage as a coping mechanism but discusses alcohol only.

Any light shed on the matter would be most appreciated. But please remember, I am not after private drug taking. I am talking about substances that were given to troops from their immediate superiors and higher. And this, from academic sources which are highly reputable.

Thanks,

Nick


(As an aside, before one tells me off for not doing my own research on the question at hand, apart from the books I have read in my lifetime, I have looked at the internet as well. A search for 'wehrmacht drugs' for example yields so many results, that it is difficult to ascertain who is the crank and who writes the truth.)

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#37

Post by phylo_roadking » 31 Mar 2008, 15:50

And the medical science, and field surgeons, were wery good in Germany.
Actually - they were not. If you can puzzle your way through the jargon in here...

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs ... s/appd.htm

...a review of the conditions and variety of wound treatments and therapies found in military hospitals in Germany at the very end of the war - you'll see they were VERY far behind the Allies in how they dealt with a whole variety of injuries.

Regarding the ALLIES' anecdotal use of amphetamines by their armed forces...This is 100% correct. I have seen the contents of an RAF BoB-period "emergency kit" carried by aircrew - and it contained at least one usually two packets of Benzedrine tablets - and more importantly for this discussion, specifically labelled as such. This was so that on land downed aircrew could put as much distance as possible between their parachutes and wrecks and travel 24/7 until they reached safety or help...or "crashed" in a different way LOL. At sea, it allowed them to stay awake and alert in their dingies, and therefore didn't miss any aircraft or rescue launches searching for them.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#38

Post by Mark V » 31 Mar 2008, 19:31

Mr Holmes wrote:However, in all my readings (which I know is not as extensive as many of you, but still) I have not come across any such reference that Wehrmacht soldiers were given illicit substances..
Hi.

What "illicit" substances ?? !!

What the troops and general public used, mostly prescribed by their doctors - should not be talked in context of modern times.

Pervitin was pretty much standard pep-pill of the day - like we today take caffeine pills or guarana energy drinks.

For example: All around Europe an pretty much standard remedy in 19th / even early 20th century for general aches was an mixture that could kill an horse - containing opium and alcohol - today we take ibuprofen for same aches.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#39

Post by Mark V » 31 Mar 2008, 20:03

phylo_roadking wrote:This was so that on land downed aircrew could put as much distance as possible between their parachutes and wrecks and travel 24/7 until they reached safety or help...or "crashed" in a different way LOL.

Hi.

Indeed. Finn long range patrols had to use large amounts of Pervitin for extended periods (couple of days) in numerous occasions. Care was taken that such medication was not used till very end of patrols that could extend for weeks behind enemy lines. Pervitin was used mostly in "breakthrough" of more intensively manned front areas, or in wintertime highspeed ski patrols (if weather stays good - patrol leaves an clearly visible ski trail behind them, extreme speed all through patrol being the only way to survive, especially late in war when Soviets also had competent ski troops and better control in rear areas - feeding fresh troops replacing the exhausted chasers every time Finns had to cross usable road).

Facing relentless Soviet troops chasing them - Finn LRP-men when reaching their own lines were sometimes pretty scary sight. There is accounts that sometimes own troops feared them a bit. Couple days on strict "speed" diet, without an moment of rest, all men armed with SMGs, knowing how to use them, is not an optimum situation for hallusinations or paranoia.

Mark V

PS. Small addition. Finn LRPs operated even hundreds of kilometres behind the lines, for weeks or even months. Sometimes they were delivered to patrol areas by floatplanes, sometimes even returned by planes. But mostly they did rely on their own feet to get there and back, summer or winter.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#40

Post by Jon G. » 01 Apr 2008, 03:41

phylo_roadking wrote:
And the medical science, and field surgeons, were wery good in Germany.
Actually - they were not. If you can puzzle your way through the jargon in here...

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs ... s/appd.htm

...a review of the conditions and variety of wound treatments and therapies found in military hospitals in Germany at the very end of the war - you'll see they were VERY far behind the Allies in how they dealt with a whole variety of injuries...
Although interesting, the American observer's conclusions may have been distorted by the Germans' marked tendency to treat their wounded closer to the front than the Americans did.

Some numbers to shed light on this: 7.9% of WIA Germans in the 1940 French campaign eventually DOW. In Russia in the summer of 1941 this figure rose to 10.5%, climbing to 12.2% in the winter of 1941. 85% of wounded in the French campaign returned to duty (65 to active duty and 20 to garrison duty); similar figures for the summer campaign in Russia are 83% (58 active, 25 garrison), and 77% (51 and 26) for the 1941 winter campaign. The average battle casualty who returned to duty was non-effective for 99 days.

For the WW2 Americans, 4.5% of of WIA eventually DOW; 64% of wounded returned to some kind of service; average non-effective days for battle casualties were 117.8, possibly reflecting that the Americans evacutated some of their casualties to an interior zone much farther away from the frontline than the corresponding German zone.

Numbers from van Creveld Fighting Power, p 97-100.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#41

Post by Mr Holmes » 01 Apr 2008, 04:30

Mark V wrote: Hi.

What "illicit" substances ?? !!
Hello Mark,

I must say, I am baffled at your exclamatory sentence since in my first post within this thread I wrote "But he does not state anything of what we would call 'illicit substance abuse'." The only other reference to the word 'illicit' in my post is that one you have quoted from where I neglected to include quotation marks. My fault for not proof reading what I wrote. In any case, my thrust is not at whether such substances (for all I know, German soldiers could have been given Aspirins only!) are legal or not; my focus is on whether they given such substances and if consumption was actually compulsory.
What the troops and general public used, mostly prescribed by their doctors - should not be talked in context of modern times.
Elsewhere in my first post, I wrote that I know very much the fact that rules and laws concerning substances which we consider illegal today, were very much legal in many societies in days gone by. And vice versa, something that the West considers a legal product, alcohol, was actually prohibited in many nations during the same time. But, as stated previously, this is not where I wish to take my query.
Pervitin was pretty much standard pep-pill of the day - like we today take caffeine pills or guarana energy drinks.
It may indeed have been common as you state, but again, I am not talking about common society nor private usage by soldiery. I only wish to find out if soldiers were ordered to consume such substances and why, together with even a single reference. Even if that reference is witten in a language I do not understand. But I would like the citation to be beyond reproach, in other words one wherein the author is known as level-headed etc. ie. not a crank as I fear I would probably stumble upon if I just went into any old website I'll take the forum members' word for it.

I have seen your references to the Finnish army being issued with substances for LRRP's. I have seen that Pervitin is supposed to do the same thing in terms of energy. Wikipedia lists common immediate effects with methamphetamine usage:
Effects
Common immediate effects.:[16]

Euphoria
Increased energy and attentiveness
Diarrhea, nausea
Excessive sweating
Loss of appetite, insomnia, tremor, jaw-clenching (Bruxism)
Agitation, compulsive fascination with repetitive tasks (Punding)
Talkativeness, irritability, panic attacks
Increased libido
This same page, has another, yet still unreferenced, passage related to the German forces of the time:
One of the earliest uses of methamphetamine was during World War II when the German military dispensed it under the trade name Pervitin.[4] It was widely distributed across rank and division, from elite forces to tank crews and aircraft personnel. Chocolates dosed with methamphetamine were known as Fliegerschokolade ("flyer's chocolate") when given to pilots, or Panzerschokolade ("tanker's chocolate") when given to tank crews. From 1942 until his death in 1945, Adolf Hitler was given daily intravenous injections of methamphetamine by his personal physician, Theodor Morell as a treatment for depression and fatigue. It is possible that it was used to treat Hitler's speculated Parkinson's disease, or that his Parkinson-like symptoms which developed from 1940 onwards were related to use of methamphetamine.[5]

5. Doyle, D (2005). "Hitler's Medical Care" (PDF). Journal of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh 35: 75-82. Retrieved on 2006-12-28.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervitin

I find it amazing that these big named books, such as those listed in my first post (there are others too, they just came into my mind, there's one or two memoirs I have read too, but no such reference was made by the authors) make no reference whatsoever. Is it that they fear that the impact of German atrocities upon those who they ruled might be mitigated in the public opinion if they think that the soldiers may not have been absolutely in control of their actions, or what?

For example, as provided in my first post (in the hope that I make myself clearer), that link to the der Spiegel article:
In a letter dated November 9, 1939, to his "dear parents and siblings" back home in Cologne, a young soldier stationed in occupied Poland wrote: "It's tough out here, and I hope you'll understand if I'm only able to write to you once every two to four days soon. Today I'm writing you mainly to ask for some Pervitin ...; Love, Hein."

Pervitin, a stimulant commonly known as speed today, was the German army's -- the Wehrmacht's -- wonder drug.

On May 20, 1940, the 22-year-old soldier wrote to his family again: "Perhaps you could get me some more Pervitin so that I can have a backup supply?" And, in a letter sent from Bromberg on July 19, 1940, he wrote: "If at all possible, please send me some more Pervitin." The man who wrote these letters became a famous writer later in life. He was Heinrich Boell, and in 1972 he was the first German to be awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in the post-war period.
It is not made clear whether he was being given the drug by his superiors or not and thus had developed an addiction.
Many of the Wehrmacht's soldiers were high on Pervitin when they went into battle, especially against Poland and France -- in a Blitzkrieg fueled by speed. The German military was supplied with millions of methamphetamine tablets during the first half of 1940. The drugs were part of a plan to help pilots, sailors and infantry troops become capable of superhuman performance. The military leadership liberally dispensed such stimulants, but also alcohol and opiates, as long as it believed drugging and intoxicating troops could help it achieve victory over the Allies. But the Nazis were less than diligent in monitoring side-effects like drug addiction and a decline in moral standards.
(bold emphases are mine)

Aside from the funky language used, I cannot be certain that what the author writes can be truly historically accurate. There is no notion (in my eyes) of the young soldier being given speed by his superiors in the first quoted passage. In the second, the cool language utilised 'high... into battle'; 'Blitzkrieg fulled by speed', makes me doubt that what follows is not more sensationalism. Therefore, in my own, twisted and warped logic, all this talk is only hearsay. However, I want to be proven wrong, but since it is an entirely unexplored area for me, all I want is just one reliable reference. Also, does the last emboldened passage point to what I say about books such as those on the Einsatzgruppen or other German perpertrators of atrocities point to an unwillingness to show a 'mitigation' of sorts in front of the public's opinion?

Thanks,

Nick

N.B. I am not stating that German drug usage was a cause of over-zealousness in carrying out the executions etc., but is it a fear amongst some authors that this may become a problem if people read the problem of speed prevalence within the German Armed Forces during WW2? I am very puzzled as to why some of these big names (inc. Browning) do not state anything about this in their literature but only discuss alcoholism.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#42

Post by Andreas » 01 Apr 2008, 10:28

Let's stick to figuring out who got the stuff, how often, and how they used it before we start speculating on how it may have affected their actions.

All the best

Andreas

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Steroid use by the germans (Cortiron)

#43

Post by Dieter Zinke » 01 Apr 2008, 12:09

In order to get an objectification of the topic I want to rcommend:
http://books.google.de/books?id=A3hq65Q ... ib0k&hl=de

(also http://www.landesarchiv-berlin.de/php-b ... rep229.pdf and
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/dokumen ... MEDIA&vl=0 and
http://www.kraniopharyngeom.com/infos/t ... rtison.htm )

That means the leading inquiring german drugmaker Schering succeeded the series-production readiness for Cortiron, an adrenogenous extraction, in 1939. But the outbreak of the war finished further basic research for the time being in germany.

At the beginning of the forties the spreading of a rumour powered the american research and development and finally the therapeutic appliance of Cortison.
The rumour affirmed the german fighters would use the adrenocorticotrophic hormone to flight in highs hitherto out of reach.

In Western Germany the amendmends or improvements of the product range began again firstly in the early fifties due to a very high price.


Dieter Z.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#44

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Apr 2008, 17:48

Jon, don't want to digress too much, but while the distance thing WAS important - it was more time versus distance that made it so. It was a period rule that infection of some type would almost certainly appear if the wound was not surgically cleaned within a maximum of six hours, and the sooner the better - therefore the closer a wound could be debrided/excised to the front, the less time would have passed, and there would be less clostridium spore contamination of the wound etc. for example. BUT technically it doesn't matter if the the surgical intervention after, say, an hour is a mile behind the lines - or fifty, as long as it was an hour rather than two, three, four, etc. - this being the advantage that the Americans came to enjoy starting in Korea with airborne evac on one side of the equation and MASHes on the other.

But if you re-read that article - what IS noticable is the sheer difference in technique...especially the note that German field surgeons concentrated more on simple cleaning and wound closure rather than full excision of the wound. Then there's ALL the listed differences between treatments of chest wounds etc. regarding drainage, reinflation of lungs to fill cavities etc. - and thus quite how many types and degrees of wounds that were left to "suck it and see" after surgery, with no further therapeutic intervention. It's a suprising list of techniques that were a surgical generation behind the US Medical Corps, stuck firmly back in the early 1930s.

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

#45

Post by Mark V » 01 Apr 2008, 19:05

Hi Mr Holmes.

Sorry, i did react on the lack of quotation marks on your post. I should had read it more carefully.
Mr Holmes wrote: N.B. I am not stating that German drug usage was a cause of over-zealousness in carrying out the executions etc., but is it a fear amongst some authors that this may become a problem if people read the problem of speed prevalence within the German Armed Forces during WW2? I am very puzzled as to why some of these big names (inc. Browning) do not state anything about this in their literature but only discuss alcoholism.
I don't believe there were chololate laced with anything else than caffeine, that is my opinion till someone proves otherwise.

Pervitin was used, but i see you are interested in it's possible administration like an vitamin pill, or part of daily ration. I have neither seen evidence of such. Large number of pills were produced, and they were used somewhere. To my understanding they were (almost always) behind medical personnel, and used on special situations, if they were available. For normal land units that would mean for example forced march. Unit commander asked consultation from medical staff requesting administration among ranks - and decision was made case by case.

I don't have proof, but i believe very large part of Pervitin tablets were used by:

1) doctors and other medical staff themselves
2) pilots and other flying personnel
3) special troops
4) commanding officers during operations
5) other personnel functioning in tasks that demanded high training level (not replaceable during prolonged action) in CCC, and operating weapon systems

Among above mentioned groups controlling the use was atleast an degree easier than among normal Wehrmacht landsers in platoon/company level = medical consultation more readily available, and/or better training/understanding of the effects by users themselves. Andreas said that we should stick with administration procedures, not the effects - but as an small deviation - in above mentioned groups the advantages of use in acute situation could outweigh the negative sides. That is not so sure in many other tasks in military forces.

In extremely rare cases where amphetamines were part of personal kit of every soldier - like Finn LRPs, there were some cases of fuck-ups early in war by using them too early on patrol, rendering the poor sod practically an case of "carry corpse to home", but they learned and later did not touch the stuff before they knew own lines were only couple days march away..and these were highly trained special forces. Giving the same stuff to normal infantry mens "iron ration" without an control is an big no, no.


Regards, Mark V

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