Steroid use by the germans

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Andreas
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Andreas » 02 Apr 2008 09:23

Mark V wrote: Andreas said that we should stick with administration procedures, not the effects - but as an small deviation - in above mentioned groups the advantages of use in acute situation could outweigh the negative sides.


Mark

There is absolutely no problem with discussing why a particular group would receive stimulants, and others not. That falls squarely into administrative as far as I am concerned.

What I will not tolerate in this thread is what I see as rampant speculation on effects of wide-spread stimulant use when this wide-spread stimulant use has not even been established.

All the best

Andreas

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Steroid use by the germans (Cortiron)

Postby Mr Holmes » 03 Apr 2008 10:27

Dieter Zinke wrote:That means the leading inquiring german drugmaker Schering succeeded the series-production readiness for Cortiron, an adrenogenous extraction, in 1939. But the outbreak of the war finished further basic research for the time being in germany.

At the beginning of the forties the spreading of a rumour powered the american research and development and finally the therapeutic appliance of Cortison.
The rumour affirmed the german fighters would use the adrenocorticotrophic hormone to flight in highs hitherto out of reach.

In Western Germany the amendmends or improvements of the product range began again firstly in the early fifties due to a very high price.


Dieter Z.


Mr Zinke,

Well that's an interesting history. If I am gauging this correctly, does this mean that this was another type of drug given to Germany's pilots as an 'experiment' alongside the other one being the Pervitin? They seem to have the same sort of characteristic of adrenaline (you can probably gather I am no scientist :-D).

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Mr Holmes » 03 Apr 2008 11:00

Mark V wrote:Hi Mr Holmes.

Sorry, i did react on the lack of quotation marks on your post. I should had read it more carefully.


Hello Mark,

Nope, my fault entirely.

I don't believe there were chololate laced with anything else than caffeine, that is my opinion till someone proves otherwise.


Yep, that's the problem I had with the wiki article and the few other websites I looked at. I couldn't really discern any proper argumentation, let alone any referencing as is seen in the wiki link.

Pervitin was used, but i see you are interested in it's possible administration like an vitamin pill, or part of daily ration. I have neither seen evidence of such. Large number of pills were produced, and they were used somewhere. To my understanding they were (almost always) behind medical personnel, and used on special situations, if they were available. For normal land units that would mean for example forced march. Unit commander asked consultation from medical staff requesting administration among ranks - and decision was made case by case.

I don't have proof, but i believe very large part of Pervitin tablets were used by:

1) doctors and other medical staff themselves
2) pilots and other flying personnel
3) special troops
4) commanding officers during operations
5) other personnel functioning in tasks that demanded high training level (not replaceable during prolonged action) in CCC, and operating weapon systems

Among above mentioned groups controlling the use was atleast an degree easier than among normal Wehrmacht landsers in platoon/company level = medical consultation more readily available, and/or better training/understanding of the effects by users themselves. Andreas said that we should stick with administration procedures, not the effects - but as an small deviation - in above mentioned groups the advantages of use in acute situation could outweigh the negative sides. That is not so sure in many other tasks in military forces.


Mark, you have hit the nail on the head with that first sentence. The documentary's claim, according to my cousin, was that German troops were issued with pills as part of their daily rationing. When I stated that I've never seen any evidence of widespread drug taking, he replied with much profanity that German pilots were stoned when they bombed, that the normal German soldier was high which is why they could take on all these countries on and performed as well as they did (he also claimed something else, but I won't say it publicly). I replied that 'it is probably your interpretation of the doco'. He swore that it is what the documentary stated. My sin is that I didn't ask for the documentary's title.

What you have written afterwards in the above passage is probably the most likely scenario. And I say this in a most apophatic manner; since it seems that there really isn't that much out there in the way of academic research (or is very hard to obtain). Those specialist types, in roles which demand high amounts of concentration I can see a desire, if not need (if you get my meaning), for something to help with meticulous amounts of concentration probably over very lengthy amount of hours could be thought of as a given. But with the lack of any author constructing any sentence on the issue in publicly available books makes me doubt the veracity of the claims in any larger roles (such as part of a daily ration). Plus, most of Germany for a few years post-War, would need to be on de-toxification programs...

In extremely rare cases where amphetamines were part of personal kit of every soldier - like Finn LRPs, there were some cases of fuck-ups early in war by using them too early on patrol, rendering the poor sod practically an case of "carry corpse to home", but they learned and later did not touch the stuff before they knew own lines were only couple days march away..and these were highly trained special forces. Giving the same stuff to normal infantry mens "iron ration" without an control is an big no, no.

Regards, Mark V


This is a highly interesting theme you have described here. For the Germans are supposed not only to have consumed substances in manner you have described here (ie. marching with deadlines to meet) but moreover, that they were capable of achieving various actions (both in combat and out of it) because of their drug-taking. This is what got me thinking about the subject and my determination within this thread to seek out the facts.

Thanks for your lengthy description of the issue at hand, you've left me much the wiser :-)

Nick

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Mr Holmes » 03 Apr 2008 11:22

Andreas wrote:What I will not tolerate in this thread is what I see as rampant speculation on effects of wide-spread stimulant use when this wide-spread stimulant use has not even been established.

All the best

Andreas


Andreas,

While I would ordinarily agree that establishing as fact first, whether or not there was compuslory substance consumption in all of the armed services, and then look at opinions on possible effects, fact of the matter is that my cousin's (can't be bothered writing '-in-law' anymore) description of the documentary focused on these other issues (according to him).

Apparently the documentary described amphetamine development as starting off in Germany and then looked at

a) Hitler's consumption of met/amphetamines and the effects it had on his judgement processes

b) i- The 'fact' that ALL of Germany's armed forces (from U-Boat submariners to the pilots and the common soldier) were compelled to swallow such pills

ii- That "the Nazis who used to kill the Jews at the pits were always high" (when Browning and others, at least from what I have read,make no such assetions in their works)

iii- That many sections of the Reich bureaucracy were massive consumers of such substances (which is why I mentioned Eichmann somewhere in my previous posts, since his is the most recent biography I have read)

As you can ascertain, the reasoning for my "widespread speculation" came not solely from my own thinking on the matter, but came from my cousin's description of what was actually (ie. purportedly) said in that documentary itself. Since these things were described to me, and I had never heard of such huge amounts of drug taking I naturally had my only recourse and that was to come here.

And I repeat, my questions related to the Actions in the East, are not what I think of the situation, but in hearing, what I think are on the whole, still outlandish claims, I could not refrain from typing down here; in other words, I was aghast (if not scndalised) at what I had heard and wanted to share it here to clean up the whole issue. I did not want to read some bull on the net written by some cranks and then come here (or to my cousin for that matter) thinking that what I had read is the gospel-truth.

If you want, I can bow out of this thread.

Nick

Andreas
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Andreas » 03 Apr 2008 12:59

There is no need to bow out of the thread Nick.

It would be really valuable to have the title of the documentary though.

And I would really like to nail down facts before getting on to the next step. I am not quite certain from your description whether the documentary did so.

All the best

Andreas

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Mr Holmes » 03 Apr 2008 13:38

Andreas wrote:There is no need to bow out of the thread Nick.


Great, thanks. :-)

It would be really valuable to have the title of the documentary though.

And I would really like to nail down facts before getting on to the next step. I am not quite certain from your description whether the documentary did so.

All the best

Andreas


I know. I may be seeing him again this weekend at a party so I should have occasion to ask there. Unfortunately, the description I have given (if it could be called that :-D) are those things precisely that he described to me. Don't get me wrong or anything, but he is not very academically inclined (ie. he just doesn't read any books), and so what he sees from things like History Channel he considers to be over and above any book that could be written about any topic where things can be better cross-referenced etc. How are they interpreting the messages and themes they are receiving? It can make for some frustrating discussion at times; but anyway I digress.

In any case, I shall look for some credible, I hope, on-line sources discussing the kernel of the topic at hand (as well as hoping some other good member of AHF knows of some good places to look into ;-) ).

Cheers

Nick

(P.S. Sorry for the somewhat sentimental post :-D)

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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Mark V » 03 Apr 2008 17:16

Hi.

From my little understanding Andreas is trying to steer this discussion so that apologizers would not get yet another thing to dwell till eternity.

He is right on that, as Internet is global, and stupid ideas spread freely.


Mark V

Andreas
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Re: Steroid use by the germans

Postby Andreas » 03 Apr 2008 19:31

That's quite a lot of understanding Mark.

All the best

Andreas

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Steroid use by the germans (Cortiron)

Postby Dieter Zinke » 03 Apr 2008 21:58

Mr Holmes wrote:
Dieter Zinke wrote:That means the leading inquiring german drugmaker Schering succeeded the series-production readiness for Cortiron, an adrenogenous extraction, in 1939. But the outbreak of the war finished further basic research for the time being in germany.

At the beginning of the forties the spreading of a rumour powered the american research and development and finally the therapeutic appliance of Cortison.
The rumour affirmed the german fighters would use the adrenocorticotrophic hormone to flight in highs hitherto out of reach.

In Western Germany the amendmends or improvements of the product range began again firstly in the early fifties due to a very high price.


Dieter Z.


Mr Zinke,

Well that's an interesting history. If I am gauging this correctly, does this mean that this was another type of drug given to Germany's pilots as an 'experiment' alongside the other one being the Pervitin? They seem to have the same sort of characteristic of adrenaline (you can probably gather I am no scientist :-D).


Oh no, this can only be due to a big misunderstanding :( !!
Cortiron was initially developed only for substitution in the case of severe deficiency of own adrenocorticoid, that means as a medicament for full-blown clinical pictures. The fabrication was expensive and also extensive, and the gain was proportionally marginal.

The L In 14 (= Luftwaffensanitätsinspektion) was never involved in blue skies thinkig about an effort increasing drug for pilots by using synthetical corticosteroids. Everything else is a never eradicable fiction like star wars, superman or for my part King Kong.

Cortiron versus Pervitin means to compare apples and oranges, this certainly doesn' t come up the truth !

BTW: I' m an internal specialist since 35 years

Dieter Z.


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