Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

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doogal
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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#46

Post by doogal » 18 Sep 2017, 22:50

I would still like to know why the war diaries differ.. Or was everyone in such general agreement that some sort of pause was needed that it is irrelevant who actually instigated it. And that the final decision was made by Hitler in support of the majority of his higher commanders ???

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#47

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2017, 23:00

doogal wrote:I would still like to know why the war diaries differ.. Or was everyone in such general agreement that some sort of pause was needed that it is irrelevant who actually instigated it. And that the final decision was made by Hitler in support of the majority of his higher commanders ???
What distinctions have you seen, specifically?


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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#48

Post by doogal » 18 Sep 2017, 23:38

jesk wrote; What distinctions have you seen, specifically?
The Wehrmacht war diary states that the halt order was from V Runstedt
Halders diary as we have seen here states that it was Hitler

Both entries date 24th May

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#49

Post by jesk » 19 Sep 2017, 07:37

doogal wrote:
jesk wrote; What distinctions have you seen, specifically?
The Wehrmacht war diary states that the halt order was from V Runstedt
Halders diary as we have seen here states that it was Hitler

Both entries date 24th May
In the recording of the journal group of armies "A" for May 24, only words about Hitler. Runstedt's order to postpone the onset of the offensive from 15 hours on 24 May to 25 May and Hitler's stop order have nothing in common.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#50

Post by ljadw » 19 Sep 2017, 08:53

jesk wrote:Disagreements between conservatives and progressives are to advance at 15 hours on May 24 or at 7 hours on May 25. There were no other disagreements.
That is not correct :Halder wanted AGA to HOLD the Germans by big frontal attacks ,there is NO proof that he wanted AGA to go to Dunkirk .

The original plan was that AGA would be the hammer and AGB the anvil; behind the back of Hitler, Halder changed this : AGB would be the hammer and AGA the anvil . When Hitler discovered this, he was not pleased and annulled the change .

Curiously (or not:I can think why ) the change of the original plan and its reasons have not been investigated .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#51

Post by mezsat2 » 20 Sep 2017, 08:18

Tucobenedito wrote:Hitler let the British go, He thought it would get him peace with the British. Allowing Hitler to attack USSR without having to watch his back. Churchill would have none of it. Hitler did not get peace with Britain so it has to go down as a blunder by Hitler.
That's what I think was going on at Dunkirk. Regards Rich
The goal should have been to keep peace with the Americans. That would have been accomplished easily enough had they just let the BEF go and stopped the bombing and U-Boat campaign immediately. The simple political fact is the U.S. doesn't intervene in any way if Hitler is attacking the USSR only. Britain would ultimately back out because it would be pointless and politically unpopular even in Britain.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#52

Post by ljadw » 20 Sep 2017, 10:34

mezsat2 wrote:
Tucobenedito wrote:Hitler let the British go, He thought it would get him peace with the British. Allowing Hitler to attack USSR without having to watch his back. Churchill would have none of it. Hitler did not get peace with Britain so it has to go down as a blunder by Hitler.
That's what I think was going on at Dunkirk. Regards Rich
The goal should have been to keep peace with the Americans. That would have been accomplished easily enough had they just let the BEF go and stopped the bombing and U-Boat campaign immediately. The simple political fact is the U.S. doesn't intervene in any way if Hitler is attacking the USSR only. Britain would ultimately back out because it would be pointless and politically unpopular even in Britain.
This is an illusion : in august 1940 war with the US was inevitable : the GOP convention appointed Willkie as candidate : Willkie agreed with the foreign policy of FDR .

And what Tucobenedito is saying is wrong : Hitler did not let the British go : he gave the explicit order to Goering to prevent the evacuation of the BEF .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#53

Post by jesk » 20 Sep 2017, 11:32

ljadw wrote:
jesk wrote:Disagreements between conservatives and progressives are to advance at 15 hours on May 24 or at 7 hours on May 25. There were no other disagreements.
That is not correct :Halder wanted AGA to HOLD the Germans by big frontal attacks ,there is NO proof that he wanted AGA to go to Dunkirk .

The original plan was that AGA would be the hammer and AGB the anvil; behind the back of Hitler, Halder changed this : AGB would be the hammer and AGA the anvil . When Hitler discovered this, he was not pleased and annulled the change .

Curiously (or not:I can think why ) the change of the original plan and its reasons have not been investigated .
This is not right. The plan was a blow to the rear along the English Channel to Dunkirk. The same was expected by the British, having built a defensive line east of Dunkirk and Newport. The evacuation was planned through Ostend.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#54

Post by jesk » 21 Sep 2017, 20:58

According to Frieser, and I agree with him, Dunkirk was a lesson in obedience to the German generals. He taught them to think about the fulfillment of any of his orders.

http://inosmi.ru/social/20170808/239999827.html

Supporters of the third version proceed from the premise that Hitler, by this senseless and counterproductive order, made it clear to his generals that the last word always belongs to him. If this is so, then this decision was directed, first of all, against the command of the ground forces, who was in favor of an immediate offensive and had the appropriate order to give the commander of the Army Group A Gerd von Runstedt. Karl-Heinz Frieser (Karl-Heinz Frieser), one of the best experts on the history of the "blitzkrieg" on the Western Front, cited many different arguments in favor of this version.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#55

Post by ljadw » 22 Sep 2017, 07:56

jesk wrote:According to Frieser, and I agree with him, Dunkirk was a lesson in obedience to the German generals. He taught them to think about the fulfillment of any of his orders.

http://inosmi.ru/social/20170808/239999827.html

Supporters of the third version proceed from the premise that Hitler, by this senseless and counterproductive order, made it clear to his generals that the last word always belongs to him. If this is so, then this decision was directed, first of all, against the command of the ground forces, who was in favor of an immediate offensive and had the appropriate order to give the commander of the Army Group A Gerd von Runstedt. Karl-Heinz Frieser (Karl-Heinz Frieser), one of the best experts on the history of the "blitzkrieg" on the Western Front, cited many different arguments in favor of this version.
This is only nonsense : Hitler agreed to the Halt Order,because the Halt Order was justified .

Besides : it was the opposite : Brauchitz ordered Rundstedt to halt the enemy while Bock would deliver the decisive blow : The OKH changed the plan totally,and Hitler disagreed .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#56

Post by jesk » 22 Sep 2017, 09:42

ljadw wrote: This is only nonsense : Hitler agreed to the Halt Order,because the Halt Order was justified .
Hitler himself came up with an order to stop. He did not agree with anyone. It was his personal initiative on May 24.
Besides : it was the opposite : Brauchitz ordered Rundstedt to halt the enemy while Bock would deliver the decisive blow : The OKH changed the plan totally,and Hitler disagreed .
Brauchitz and Halder were ordered to strike from the west along the English Channel. Hitler changed the plan. On Dunkirk, advancing from the east and south. The blow from the west to the end of the operation remained prohibited. Until May 24 and from the south and east, from all sides were advancing.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#57

Post by jesk » 22 Sep 2017, 12:21

The version is closer than the others. The struggle of Hitler for control of the army for "future operations".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKzu0Xz991k

Hitler ordered the Army to halt on a matter of principle alone. Not to allow the British to escape. Not to allow the Luftwaffe to destroy the pocket.

Up until this point in the war, the German general staff had a habit of talking back to, and directly defying orders from Hitler.
After Hitler decided to adopt Manstein's sickle cut strategy for the battle of France, he ordered the army to halt and regroup at Sedan. However, the strategy called for a non-stop advance to the channel. Always forward, never stopping. The German generals directly defied this order to stop at Sedan. Hitler was furious, and demanded respect for his authority. After reaching the channel, He ordered the Panzers to stop, simply because he was the Fuhrer, and he said so. You have to recognize the power struggle taking place inside he German general staff, and between the German generals and Hitler.

After Dunkirk, Hitler would take a much more hands on approach to the army command.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#58

Post by doogal » 22 Sep 2017, 14:18

Is there in existence an original or copy of Hitlers order of the 24th May.
I only ask as in the (bbc video you tube) link you posted jesk, when John Hughes Wilson is looking at the official history (which countries) and referring to the text line starting: By the Fuhrers order it says "this line may only be crossed on the express instruction of army group headquarters".
This is not written in a way to suggest that he was teaching his Generals a lesson.
And was the line Lens, Bethune, Aire, St Omer, Gravelines, a favourable defensive line ?????
It also refers to Hoth and Kleist as the North Western Wing.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#59

Post by ljadw » 22 Sep 2017, 15:08

jesk wrote:

Up until this point in the war, the German general staff had a habit of talking back to, and directly defying orders from Hitler.
.[/i]

PROOF ?

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#60

Post by ljadw » 22 Sep 2017, 16:02

doogal wrote:Is there in existence an original or copy of Hitlers order of the 24th May.
I only ask as in the (bbc video you tube) link you posted jesk, when John Hughes Wilson is looking at the official history (which countries) and referring to the text line starting: By the Fuhrers order it says "this line may only be crossed on the express instruction of army group headquarters".
This is not written in a way to suggest that he was teaching his Generals a lesson.
And was the line Lens, Bethune, Aire, St Omer, Gravelines, a favourable defensive line ?????
It also refers to Hoth and Kleist as the North Western Wing.
I have searched ,but vainly, and this for years for a copy of the halt order;was the halt order related to AGA, AGB, or both ? Most (6) of Rundstedt's PzD were in the south (south from St Omer) and could not advance to Dunkirk .And, what most people don't know,is that Halder had taken away these PzD and the 4 Army (Kluge) from Rundstedt and had given them to Bock .

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