Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

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doogal
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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#76

Post by doogal » 27 Sep 2017, 20:35

Jesk wrote : and what. Was Brauchitsch a politician!?
I struggle to see the relevance of this comment:

These excerpts from Halders diary are from the 25th May at least 24hrs(or there abouts) after any halt order was issued. That is 24hrs after the issue that is being examined, and a day before any pause was reversed. Therefore in the interregnum it would seem obvious that the original plan would now alter, owing to the fluid nature of battle:
And hence any re-alignment of forces after the fact is quite irrelevant to discussion about the nature of the halt order it self:
I would also say that if Halders original plan called for ( B to be the Hammer and A to be the Anvil) that the halt order on the 24th,which was not factored into his (Halders) plan would now have to be.
Or did he plan to proceed without looking at the new conditions the halt order had helped to create.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#77

Post by jesk » 27 Sep 2017, 21:05

Halder's plan was to capture the English. Hitler prevented this. This is the crux of the matter.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#78

Post by jesk » 27 Sep 2017, 23:58

It was sabotage. Hitler ordered to attack the southern extremity of the front, the place with the highest concentration of enemy units. Far from Dunkirk and frontal assault, instead of maneuver on a wide front. The British expected to take out 45,000 soldiers by sea, before the coast was captured. The direction of the main attack determined by Hitler allowed to save all.
Bailleul-Armantieres-Seclin-Tournai marked the red line on the map

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation
The retreat was undertaken amid chaotic conditions, with abandoned vehicles blocking the roads and a flood of refugees heading in the opposite direction. Due to wartime censorship and the desire to keep up British morale, the full extent of the unfolding disaster at Dunkirk was not initially publicised. A special service attended by King George VI was held in Westminster Abbey on 26 May, which was declared a national day of prayer. The Archbishop of Canterbury led prayers "for our soldiers in dire peril in France". Similar prayers were offered in synagogues and churches throughout the UK that day, confirming to the public their suspicion of the desperate plight of the troops. Just before 19:00 on 26 May, Churchill ordered Dynamo to begin, by which time 28,000 men had already departed. Initial plans called for the recovery of 45,000 men from the BEF within two days, at which time German troops were expected to block further evacuation. Only 25,000 men escaped during this period, including 7,669 on the first day.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#79

Post by jesk » 28 Sep 2017, 00:12

Frontal assault and Hitler sprayed forces. 2 attack areas: Bailleul-Armantieres, Seclin-Tournai.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#80

Post by ljadw » 28 Sep 2017, 07:28

From "Forum der Wehrmacht" :Thread :Haltebefehle vor Dünkirchen nicht vielleicht doch sinnfoll .

P2 Post from 28 july :

"At the evening of 24 may were 55 % of the tanks of 1PzD not operational." Source : Diary of the Ib of the 1st PzD .

And " Heavy resistance at Gravelines ,no advance possible . Enemy uses MG and PAK ." (Same source )

Gravelines was at 31 km of Dunkirk .

Thus another myth (strong German forces against weak British forces ) debunked .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#81

Post by jesk » 28 Sep 2017, 07:44

ljadw wrote:From "Forum der Wehrmacht" :Thread :Haltebefehle vor Dünkirchen nicht vielleicht doch sinnfoll .

P2 Post from 28 july :

"At the evening of 24 may were 55 % of the tanks of 1PzD not operational." Source : Diary of the Ib of the 1st PzD .

And " Heavy resistance at Gravelines ,no advance possible . Enemy uses MG and PAK ." (Same source )

Gravelines was at 31 km of Dunkirk .

Thus another myth (strong German forces against weak British forces ) debunked .
But this is only one division. There were about 10 of them. The overwhelming majority of allied soldiers were evacuated on May 29-31. The Germans did not try to stop them. On May 26, Hitler ordered two panzer divisions to attack south of Lille, 90 km from Dunkirk.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/lagewes ... -1940.html

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#82

Post by ljadw » 28 Sep 2017, 10:43

You know where the other 9 PzD where located on 24 may ? You should know it .

But FYI

10 Pz: Calais

2 Pz :Boulogne

6 Pz : south of St.Omer

8 Pz : at the Aire river

3,4 and 7 Pz : Bethune ( crow distance to Dunkirk : 80 km )

5 Pz : Lens

9 Pz was in Belgium with AGB .

And Hitler's order to attack Lille was very logical as 4, 7, 5 Pz (=PzGr Hoth,depending on 4th Army) were all south/south -west of Lille ,100 km from Dunkirk .

On 24 may, the whole AG A was blocked by strong allied resistance : 1 Pz was blocked at Gravelines by French units and a batallion of the Green

Howards . This means that Guderian was lying when after the war he claimed that the road to Dunkirk was open for his AC and that only Hitler's order saved the BEF .

1 Pz was the closest to Dunkirk and was blocked , the other PzD were much farther from Dunkirk .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#83

Post by doogal » 28 Sep 2017, 19:55

Is it not true though that the halt on the 15th May caused by the 4th dcr at Moncornet and the actions between the 20th and 22nd by the British and French at Arras and Cambrai respectively were the real reason that Dunkirk was not reached. And that had these not taken place the halt order of the 24th would have been irrelevant.
And that Kleist and Runstedt in agreement with (4th Army commander ) von Kluge were all in favour of pausing from the 24th, illustrating that the fighting at Arras on the 22nd directly influenced all three German commanders decision on this point.
In light of this Halder had no choice but to adjust OKH's plan. Even though he protests such a course of action in his diary.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#84

Post by jesk » 28 Sep 2017, 23:44

ljadw wrote:You know where the other 9 PzD where located on 24 may ? You should know it .

But FYI

10 Pz: Calais

2 Pz :Boulogne

6 Pz : south of St.Omer

8 Pz : at the Aire river

3,4 and 7 Pz : Bethune ( crow distance to Dunkirk : 80 km )

5 Pz : Lens

9 Pz was in Belgium with AGB .

And Hitler's order to attack Lille was very logical as 4, 7, 5 Pz (=PzGr Hoth,depending on 4th Army) were all south/south -west of Lille ,100 km from Dunkirk .
In May 1945, the Soviet tank unit in Austria moved at a speed of 60-65 km per hour. Those distances that are in your post, for tanks are insignificant.

https://iremember.ru/memoirs/tankisti/k ... haylovich/
We have an order - To the West! And the battalion went west. Then we were trying to catch up with the "rain three quarters", and we gave such a speed. We look at the units of the American army, and all stand on the verge. It turns out they were warned, they freed the highway to us. And we flew like that - motorcycles, armored vehicles, cars and tanks with the same speed - 60-65 kilometers per hour. There was such a rumble. And in any way these "Dodge", could not overtake us. And then when the fuel ran out, we got up and think: "What's next to do?"

And the Americans, when we were passed in, they looked at us with amazement, where are these Russians bent? In the same place, all stopped, and we pearls. Two days stood without fuel, then we were brought up fuel, we refueled and we were ordered to return. We have returned.

On 24 may, the whole AG A was blocked by strong allied resistance : 1 Pz was blocked at Gravelines by French units and a batallion of the Green

Howards . This means that Guderian was lying when after the war he claimed that the road to Dunkirk was open for his AC and that only Hitler's order saved the BEF .

1 Pz was the closest to Dunkirk and was blocked , the other PzD were much farther from Dunkirk .
Distance Gravelines - Dunkirk 19 km. According to your reference to the journal division, written about the resistance in the city. Beyond it tanks and infantry advanced.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#85

Post by jesk » 28 Sep 2017, 23:49

doogal wrote:Is it not true though that the halt on the 15th May caused by the 4th dcr at Moncornet and the actions between the 20th and 22nd by the British and French at Arras and Cambrai respectively were the real reason that Dunkirk was not reached. And that had these not taken place the halt order of the 24th would have been irrelevant.
And that Kleist and Runstedt in agreement with (4th Army commander ) von Kluge were all in favour of pausing from the 24th, illustrating that the fighting at Arras on the 22nd directly influenced all three German commanders decision on this point.
In light of this Halder had no choice but to adjust OKH's plan. Even though he protests such a course of action in his diary.
Halder protested. On May 25 and beyond, the divisions could strike at Dunkirk. Hitler said that there is a terrain impassable for tanks.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#86

Post by jesk » 28 Sep 2017, 23:57

ljadw wrote:
On 24 may, the whole AG A was blocked by strong allied resistance : 1 Pz was blocked at Gravelines by French units and a batallion of the Green

Howards . This means that Guderian was lying when after the war he claimed that the road to Dunkirk was open for his AC and that only Hitler's order saved the BEF .
The population of Gravelines is 11,828 people. It's a very small town. Maybe 2 companies 200 soldiers fought for the city, and you write blocked Guderian's division.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelines

Population (2006) 11,828

Your links are not informative. There is little information for such conclusions: Guderian lies. :o

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#87

Post by ljadw » 29 Sep 2017, 07:45

jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:You know where the other 9 PzD where located on 24 may ? You should know it .

But FYI

10 Pz: Calais

2 Pz :Boulogne

6 Pz : south of St.Omer

8 Pz : at the Aire river

3,4 and 7 Pz : Bethune ( crow distance to Dunkirk : 80 km )

5 Pz : Lens

9 Pz was in Belgium with AGB .

And Hitler's order to attack Lille was very logical as 4, 7, 5 Pz (=PzGr Hoth,depending on 4th Army) were all south/south -west of Lille ,100 km from Dunkirk .
In May 1945, the Soviet tank unit in Austria moved at a speed of 60-65 km per hour. Those distances that are in your post, for tanks are insignificant.

https://iremember.ru/memoirs/tankisti/k ... haylovich/
We have an order - To the West! And the battalion went west. Then we were trying to catch up with the "rain three quarters", and we gave such a speed. We look at the units of the American army, and all stand on the verge. It turns out they were warned, they freed the highway to us. And we flew like that - motorcycles, armored vehicles, cars and tanks with the same speed - 60-65 kilometers per hour. There was such a rumble. And in any way these "Dodge", could not overtake us. And then when the fuel ran out, we got up and think: "What's next to do?"

And the Americans, when we were passed in, they looked at us with amazement, where are these Russians bent? In the same place, all stopped, and we pearls. Two days stood without fuel, then we were brought up fuel, we refueled and we were ordered to return. We have returned.

On 24 may, the whole AG A was blocked by strong allied resistance : 1 Pz was blocked at Gravelines by French units and a batallion of the Green

Howards . This means that Guderian was lying when after the war he claimed that the road to Dunkirk was open for his AC and that only Hitler's order saved the BEF .

1 Pz was the closest to Dunkirk and was blocked , the other PzD were much farther from Dunkirk .
Distance Gravelines - Dunkirk 19 km. According to your reference to the journal division, written about the resistance in the city. Beyond it tanks and infantry advanced.
19 km is the crow distance, tanks are not crows .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#88

Post by ljadw » 29 Sep 2017, 08:00

From WW2 Talk "6th Green Howards at Gravelines 23/24 may 1940 "

1) The diary of the batallion mentions that it arrived at Gravelines at 0700 hrs 23 may .

2 ) The diary of major Patch (Bcy ) says that it was the WHOLE batallion .

Other point : your reference to Soviet tanks driving at 65 km in Austria in may 1945 is irrelevant, as we are talking about may 1940, not may 1945, when all German organised resistance has collapsed .


The diary of the Green Howards proves that already on 23 may (BEFORE the halt order) there were British and French forces blocking a German advance to Dunkirk and that Guderian was lying , not for the first and not for the last time .

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#89

Post by jesk » 29 Sep 2017, 13:48

ljadw wrote:From WW2 Talk "6th Green Howards at Gravelines 23/24 may 1940 "

1) The diary of the batallion mentions that it arrived at Gravelines at 0700 hrs 23 may .

2 ) The diary of major Patch (Bcy ) says that it was the WHOLE batallion .

The diary of the Green Howards proves that already on 23 may (BEFORE the halt order) there were British and French forces blocking a German advance to Dunkirk and that Guderian was lying , not for the first and not for the last time .
Guderian does not lie. You just read very little on the topic. Make hasty conclusions.
In Guderian's memoirs it is written, Gravelines is taken on May 23rd. The next day the division fought on a broad front in four settlements.

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/guderian/05.html

On May 23, the 1st Panzer Division began to advance with fights towards Gravlin, while the 2nd Panzer Division was fighting for Boulogne at that time. Storming the city was of a peculiar nature, as the old city stone walls for a long time prevented our tanks and infantry from penetrating the city. With the help of ladders and thanks to the effective support of 88-mm anti-aircraft guns, we finally managed to overcome the stone wall near the cathedral and penetrate the city. Began fighting in the port, during which the fire of tanks, an English torpedo boat was sunk and several others damaged.
On May 24, the 1st Panzer Division reached Canal Aa between Olk and the coast and captured the bridgeheads at Olk, Saint Pierre Brook, Saint-Nicolas and Burbur; The 2nd Panzer Division fought to clear Boulogne; The 10th Panzer Division, with its main forces, reached the line of Devr, Same.
The corps was given a regiment of the standard "Adolf Hitler". I assigned him the task of operating in the coastal zone in order to increase the impetuosity of the advance of the 1st Panzer Division to Dunkirk, the 2nd Panzer Division was ordered to withdraw all spare parts from Boulogne and send them to the coastal strip, the 10th Panzer Division blocked Kale and the start prepare to storm the old sea fortress. In the afternoon, I visited the division and ordered to move forward systematically to reduce losses. For operations on May 25, the division was reinforced with heavy artillery, which could be removed from the Boulogne site. [159]
The 41st Army Corps of Reinhardt created a bridgehead at St. Omer on the river. Aa.
Other point : your reference to Soviet tanks driving at 65 km in Austria in may 1945 is irrelevant, as we are talking about may 1940, not may 1945, when all German organised resistance has collapsed .
You wrote, the tanks were 80 km to the south near Lille. The Germans would go to Gravelines on their territory. Cleared of the enemy. 56 tank corps of Manstein from the morning of June 22, 1941 to the morning of 26, with fights passed 300 km. 75 km per day. On the march could and 150 km a day.

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Re: Hitler's controversial order about Dunkirk

#90

Post by ljadw » 29 Sep 2017, 14:27

What is more reliable ? The diary of the 1st Panzer Division or the post war memoirs of a defeated general, who said that everything was the fault of von Kluge ?

The answer is obvious .

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