Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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#16

Post by webmill » 06 Dec 2007, 00:31

Ironmachine wrote: I highly doubt that the US would enter the war in that scenario, given that in the real situation, where the only difference was that Spain was unconquered, the US did not joined the war when Barbarossa started. I do not see Spain as being so important for the United States.


quote]

would the US be concerned, to the point of taking action, if Spain fell to German panzer overrun in late 1940 or early 1941?

Part of the US position was the history of the Spanish-Anerican War in 1898. While that is forty years ago in this scenario of '40 and '41; the wars influence on American policy would still be there.While the American public may or may not remember the issues of the Spanish American War, the wars history was a major part of US Navy tradition; The US Medal of Honor was borne (EDIT: in terms of Pres McKinleys 1897 improvements) in this war. And the US emerged as a major naval power as a result of it also.
Roosevelt and American High Brass in the Navy had no love for the Facists in Spain or thier control of a any future possible Spanish navy or Army that might now or predictably be hostile to the US once again.; Particulary a Spanish Navy that could be built up by the Germans or Italians.

the US dilemna, in my assessment, was to risk casualties now in 1940 by interfering in Spain or take the US casualties later in say 1944 when Spains Facist-militaristic regime decides to strike at the US. The US does not want to face a Spanish militaristic regime bent on hostility, using the overseas possessions as the point, with a crippled Great Britain due to the loss of Gibraltar.
Last edited by webmill on 06 Dec 2007, 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

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#17

Post by Michael Emrys » 06 Dec 2007, 04:37

webmill wrote:The US Medal of Honor was borne in this [Spanish-American] war.
Not so. The CMOH goes back to the Civil War.
the US dilemna, in my assessment, was to risk casualties now in 1940 by interfering in Spain or take the US casualties later in say 1944 when Spains Facist-militaristic regime decides to strike at the US.
There seems to be a tendency in this thread to over-estimate the potential of Spain. Spain at this time was still devastated by its civil war and hardly a threat to anybody beyond its borders.
The US does not want to face a Spanish militaristic regime bent on hostility, using the overseas possessions as the point...
If Spain had joined the Axis willingly, or had been taken over by the Axis by force, its overseas possessions would in most cases have been more or less immediately occupied by the Allies.

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#18

Post by webmill » 06 Dec 2007, 07:49

Michael Emrys wrote:
Not so. The CMOH goes back to the Civil War.

There seems to be a tendency in this thread to over-estimate the potential of Spain. Spain at this time was still devastated by its civil war and hardly a threat to anybody beyond its borders.

If Spain had joined the Axis willingly, or had been taken over by the Axis by force, its overseas possessions would in most cases have been more or less immediately occupied by the Allies.
Exactly correct about the Congressional Medal of Honor it was established on July 12, 1862. My use of the word "borne" refers to President Mckinleys effect on the Medal of honor on June 26 1897: In which the original "distinguish" was moved to "Gallantry and Intrepidity above and beyond, the call of duty". Plus the requirement for one or more eye witnesses.
I will EDIT my original post to reflect this;

Although if the Allies occupied Spanish possessions as a result of Spain being occupied by Germany and joining the Axis (the US might offer to pay for these or promise a return if Spain goes back to being Nuetral)

I would estimate the US real anxiety was that Spain would want to revenge their naval losses to the US Navy at the battle of Santiago Bay etc. And the US would not know where,when or how a Militaristic and hostile Spain was going to do this.

A confrontation over Puetro Rico/Cuba is not out of the question for example;although I think Spain would need success Vrs the US in other places first before getting to here --as a result tying up US resources and assets.--and again sometime in the future when Nazi Germany starts to complete its military success

"hardly a threat to anybody outside their borders (Spain)" Do you really think so?Other Axis forces fought well when teamed up with a German Panzer divsion; such as the more highly regarded Romanian Gebrig Div in Army group A in the Caucasus in 1942. true also of the Italian Ariete Div fighting along in DAK in N. Africa. Hungarian Divisions fought tough in late 1944 again along side German divisions after Romania defected .
I would say don't make the mistake of using poorly armed Axis troops in terms of anti tank guns to hold front lines when facing intact Allied/Soviet Armored Divisions..But the German Command was aware of Axis divisions weakness of anti tank gun capability.(although they broke the rule at the Don '42.)
Spanish armed forces in time certainly could be a threat although the scale of the threat needs to be assessed. And the US would see it that way if Spain was overrun by Germany in 40/41 ...The US was not completely aware how seriously weak the Axis foces (including a newly joined Spain) was in anti tank gun pieces as far as being their semi-permanent state of affairs as the war progressed, in my estimation.
the US would assume the Luftwaffe would back up most important Axis (and Spanish) forces.

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#19

Post by Michael Emrys » 06 Dec 2007, 09:58

webmill wrote:Other Axis forces fought well when teamed up with a German Panzer divsion...
But none of them had just concluded a devastating and divisive civil war. Spain simply was not in good shape at this time. They could have fought a guerilla war against an invader, especially with the help of an ally, but to go out and try to fight a stand up conventional war against a modern major power would not be in the cards. Particularly, they could not afford to take on the West, because that's where their food and oil were coming from, and for reasons already enumerated in this thread, Germany was not going to make up any shortfall.

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#20

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Dec 2007, 11:13

Webmill, you have a truly distorted view of the Spanish situation at the time.
The Spanish Army consisted of about 20 infantry divisions. Artillery was both old and light. Tanks were few (about 200, grossly speaking), and the best model was the Soviet T-26. Anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery were in very bad shape. The Navy was a joke. And the Air Force was mainly based on the Italian CR.32 fighter. The country could not produce modern heavy equipment, and was having problems to feed its people. So let's go point by point:
Particulary a Spanish Navy that could be built up by the Germans or Italians.
The Germans would have not only to built up the Spanish Navy, but also the Army and the Air Force, something that could not be achieved. It would be specially difficult in the case of the Navy, as capital ships took long time to be built. The "Imperial Plan" made by Spain in 1939 to rebuild its Navy asked for only four battleships, and was to last eleven years, so how many years would Spain need to build a Navy that could be considered a danger to the US? Even more so if you considered that nothing came out of the "Imperial Plan" because the country was utterly unable to build anything bigger that a destroyer, and even that with difficulty.
the US dilemna, in my assessment, was to risk casualties now in 1940 by interfering in Spain or take the US casualties later in say 1944 when Spains Facist-militaristic regime decides to strike at the US. The US does not want to face a Spanish militaristic regime bent on hostility, using the overseas possessions as the point, with a crippled Great Britain due to the loss of Gibraltar.
Exactly what were these overseas possessions? Guinea is out of the question, because there were almost no Spanish troops there and it could be easily cut off from Spain; the Canary Islands would be lost as soon as Spain declares war on Great Britain (the British had plans and troops earmarked for such a case); and Spanish Morocco adds nothing that could not be done from Spain. So what are you talking about?
And of course, the loss of Gibraltar would be far from a crippling point to Great Britain. In fact they had planned for just such eventuality, and be sure that they not considered it that way.
I would estimate the US real anxiety was that Spain would want to revenge their naval losses to the US Navy at the battle of Santiago Bay etc. And the US would not know where,when or how a Militaristic and hostile Spain was going to do this
Any Spanish regimen that could colaborated with the Axis would be far more interested in retaking Gibraltar, fighting the Soviet Union or gaining a colonial empire in Africa than in revenging the 1898 war. You are far overestimating the importance of the Spanish-American War in the Spanish psyche by that date.
A confrontation over Puetro Rico/Cuba is not out of the question for example;
And exactly how are the Spanish forces supposed to reach Puerto Rico and Cuba? Swimming?
"hardly a threat to anybody outside their borders (Spain)" Do you really think so?Other Axis forces fought well when teamed up with a German Panzer divsion; such as the more highly regarded Romanian Gebrig Div in Army group A in the Caucasus in 1942. true also of the Italian Ariete Div fighting along in DAK in N. Africa. Hungarian Divisions fought tough in late 1944 again along side German divisions after Romania defected .
Yes, hardly a threat to anybody outside the Spanish borders. Spanish military might in the 40's could perhaps achieve a victory over Portugal and Andorra, or even over Ireland if they could somehow reach that country, or at most take Gibraltar by its own. More than that is just a dream. Romanian and Italian Armed Forces were both bigger and in far better shape than Spanish forces. Also, for the first years of the war, both Romania and Italy were relatively safe from Allied attacks, while Spain would be open to such operation from the same moment it enters the war, so Spanish forces would be badly needed to defend Spain itself. Not much would be left to be sent "outside the borders".
I would say don't make the mistake of using poorly armed Axis troops in terms of anti tank guns to hold front lines when facing intact Allied/Soviet Armored Divisions..But the German Command was aware of Axis divisions weakness of anti tank gun capability.(although they broke the rule at the Don '42.)
So if you do not want the Spanish forces to hold front lines, what do you want them for? Ocuppation duties? They would be needed to garrison Spain, anyway.
The US was not completely aware how seriously weak the Axis foces (including a newly joined Spain) was in anti tank gun pieces as far as being their semi-permanent state of affairs as the war progressed, in my estimation.
The Allies were very aware of the weaknesses of Spain. The equipment was what was left from the Civil war and that was very well known. The US was very well informed about the dangerous situations regarding oil supply, as it was almost the only supplier. Spying was also providing good information to the British. For example, their estimations of the forces in the Canary Islands (that they made for their invasion plans) was fairly accurate. And the planning of Operation Backbone had very good information about Spanish forces and defenses in Spanish Morocco.

So to do a quick summary:
1) Spain in the Axis camp would be more a liability that an advantage for German unless the Soviet Union is defeated (or the war with the Soviet Union is somehow prevented) and Germany could use all its power against the British. In a sense, Spain joining the war along the Axis after the Fall of France would nor reinforce, but weaken, the German situation.
2) With a two-front war and the bulk of the German resources used in the East, Spain would be indefensible against the US.
3) The US knew very well the Spanish situation, and just the entrance of Spain in the war along the Axis would not be enough to force the US to fight.

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#21

Post by webmill » 06 Dec 2007, 17:54

Michael Emrys wrote:
webmill wrote:Other Axis forces fought well when teamed up with a German Panzer divsion...
But none of them had just concluded a devastating and divisive civil war. Spain simply was not in good shape at this time.

......They could have fought a guerilla war against an invader, especially with the help of an ally,

......but to go out and try to fight a stand up conventional war against a modern major power would not be in the cards.

.....Particularly, they could not afford to take on the West, because that's where their food and oil were coming from,

Michael
thats of course true about Spains troops in 40/41 coming from their Civil War and I agree thats where a correct analysis would start from. As a result of this IF Germany invaded the country, how many reliable Spanish Axis divisions could the German/European Axis make?
A clue is that on the East Front some Spanish troops joined the SS. And a Spanish test for Spaniards as to was reliable to the Militaristic/Facist government in wartime Axis alliance. The US in late 1940 and 1941, in my assessment, would not like the world to come to this--SS tests on a European countrys people, particulary if its purpose is to knuckle under/and subordinate the superior power of US and Britain combined.

As far as fighting a "conventional war against a major power" I would assess that the German High Command assessment of Spanish Armed Forces in 1940 were that the Spanish, by themselves would not hold up in set-piece battle or in mobile/air force battle to a modern major power army--such as the mechanized divisions of the Wehrmacht. EDIT; this is, of course, as the French armored divisions and French Air Force did not hold up successfully to the Wehrmacht either.
Therefore the issue, or game here, is to get the to be created Axis Spanish divisions, equiped as best as possible, to fight alongside German divisions (a force multiplier, if you will, for the Spanish and German armies). Britian always sensitive about casualties they could not afford (due to manpower limitations ) would want to importantly avoid attrition with these Axis troops. The US would see the British position on this. America also although a much larger population base did not like or want higher casualties either unless.
forced to--
Last edited by webmill on 06 Dec 2007, 23:54, edited 3 times in total.

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#22

Post by LWD » 06 Dec 2007, 19:04

One problem here is what to do about Portugal? They have a treaty with Britain requiring them to go to war with Britains enemies if requested. Historically the British did not make the request at least early in the war. If Portugal hasn't been invaded by 43 what's to stop the British from requesting a Portugese declaration of war and haveing the forces landed at Torch available to land at friendly ports a few hours later? Also what happens if after the Germans invade Spain or the Spanish join the Axis the US quickly concludes a defence treaty with Portugal and ships troops over? Both are neutral at this point.

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#23

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Dec 2007, 19:19

webmill wrote:Therefore the issue, or game here, is to get the to be created Axis Spanish divisions, equiped as best as possible, to fight alongside German divisions (a force multiplier of you will for the Spanish and German armies).
And how is Germany supposed to equip the Axis Spanish divisions, considering that Germany had problems to properly equip some of its own divisions? What would be the advantage of creating German-equipped Spanish divisions instead of using that same hypotetical equipment to increase the combat potential of other already involved Axis countries, like Italy or Romania for example?

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#24

Post by webmill » 07 Dec 2007, 03:03

Ironmachine wrote:
.....you have a truly distorted view of the Spanish situation at the time.
The Spanish Army consisted of about 20 infantry divisions. Artillery was both old and light. Tanks were few (about 200, grossly speaking), and the best model was the Soviet T-26. Anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery were in very bad shape. . And the Air Force was mainly based on the Italian CR.32 fighter


No...not a distorted view of the Spanish Army at the time. See my last post.
The entry of the basics of the Spanish Order of Battle in 1940/41 finally makes its appearance in the discussion
Ironmachine Quote:
Yes, hardly a threat to anybody outside the Spanish borders. Spanish military might in the 40,s could perhaps achieve a victory over Portugal and Andorra or even over Ireland if they could somehow reach that country or at most take Gibraltar by its own
If Spanish forces are backed up by the Luftwaffe to take Gibraltar on their own; ; if you believe Spanish Forces are not greater than "hardly a threat" after success in this battle.;with its creation of Spanish veterans; then this is what you are convinced of;
I believe the US in 1940 and 41 would worry seriously about the potential growth of Spanish Axis troops
;

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#25

Post by Ironmachine » 07 Dec 2007, 10:14

I had already told you there was no way for Germany to fully equip the Spanish Army while at the same time supplying food and oil for the entire Spanish population. Without that, you are left with "hardly a threat", yes: a small army (for the scales of the world war), with completely outdated equipment, and a starving country.
Now, do not be too much excited about my statement about Gibraltar. I think that Spanish forces could have taken Gibraltar at the end of 1940 or beginning of 1941, even without Luftwaffe support. The fact that British propaganda had propagated the name Gibraltar as synonymous with "invincible" do not make "the Rock" such. In fact there were Spanish plans for such an operation, and it seems that the Spanish Army thougth it could be done. But that only means that Spain could have beaten four infantry battalions without air support locked in a small piece of land with poorly prepared defenses; and it would have mean the almost immediate loss of the Canary Islands, that the British were ready to occupy and the Spanish forces would have been unable to defend. All this hardly makes the Spanis forces a threat to anyone.
The "Spanish veterans" that you so highly value would not be more bullet-proof than green troops and would be overwhelmed by the amount of equipment that the Allies could take to the fight.
I believe the US in 1940 and 41 would worry seriously about the potential growth of Spanish Axis troops
Now that's something. So the US were not worried enough to enter the war by the German conquests of Poland, Norway, Holand, Belgium and France; by the Soviet invasion of Poland, the conquest of the Baltic States and the attack against Finland; by the Italian invasions of Egypt, Greece and France and their attacks on Malta; and by the British Islands being under German attack; but they were going to be worried by the hypothetical future growth of the forces of what one of the poorest countries of Europe at the time? :lol:

Now to return to the original purpose of the thread, that was:
Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?
the obvious answer is:
Why would have Hitler invaded Spain? There was nothing to obtain there. If would have been a liability for a Germany fully oriented to the war against the Soviet Union. A German-conquered Spain would have been a soft back open to invasion by the Allies, another far land to which many troops would have to be sent to garrison it, a country that would have to be feed, probably a guerrilla war that would dwarfed that of Yugoslavia, and an army that, even if it wanted to colaborate with the Germans (and that's is highly unlikely in the case of a German invasion) was in no shape to do it.

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#26

Post by [email protected] » 07 Dec 2007, 13:13

Earlier considerations of the German invasion of Spain came to nothing. However
after the fall of Tunis in May 1943 Hitler was very worried about an Allied landing in the Bay of Biscay. The German High Command was asked to prepare for a dash into Spain: Operation Gisela.Five divisions, four of them mechanised or motorised, were earmarked for this operation. One of them was to race for Bilbao and the rest fanwise, the left wing for central Spain, direction Madrid...

There being no Allied invasion in Spain in 1943,Operation Gisela was shelved+

A.K. [/i]

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#27

Post by panzertruppe2001 » 07 Dec 2007, 16:42

[email protected] wrote:Earlier considerations of the German invasion of Spain came to nothing. However
after the fall of Tunis in May 1943 Hitler was very worried about an Allied landing in the Bay of Biscay. The German High Command was asked to prepare for a dash into Spain: Operation Gisela.Five divisions, four of them mechanised or motorised, were earmarked for this operation. One of them was to race for Bilbao and the rest fanwise, the left wing for central Spain, direction Madrid...

There being no Allied invasion in Spain in 1943,Operation Gisela was shelved+

A.K. [/i]

But I suppose Operation Gisela would be the entry of the Wehrmacht in Spain, not a typical German invasion with the overthrew of Franco government and the setup of a German occupation administration and the subsequent chase of the Spanish jews.
I guess that in the case of Operation Felix or Operation Gisela the occupation of Spain would be something like Rommel troops in Lybia or German troops in Rumania in October 1940. The Wehrmacht was there but protecting the country not invading and occupyng it.

Excuse my grammar and ortography (including this last word).


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#28

Post by webmill » 07 Dec 2007, 19:19

Ironmachine wrote:I had already told you there was no way for Germany to fully equip the Spanish Army while at the same time supplying food and oil for the entire Spanish population. Without that, you are left with "hardly a threat", yes: a small army (for the scales of the world war), with completely outdated equipment, and a starving country.
Now, do not be too much excited about my statement about Gibraltar. I think that Spanish forces could have taken Gibraltar at the end of 1940 or beginning of 1941, even without Luftwaffe support. The fact that British propaganda had propagated the name Gibraltar as synonymous with "invincible" do not make "the Rock" such. In fact there were Spanish plans for such an operation, and it seems that the Spanish Army thougth it could be done. But that only means that Spain could have beaten four infantry battalions without air support locked in a small piece of land with poorly prepared defenses; and it would have mean the almost immediate loss of the Canary Islands, that the British were ready to occupy and the Spanish forces would have been unable to defend. All this hardly makes the Spanis forces a threat to anyone.
The "Spanish veterans" that you so highly value would not be more bullet-proof than green troops and would be overwhelmed by the amount of equipment that the Allies could take to the fight.
I believe the US in 1940 and 41 would worry seriously about the potential growth of Spanish Axis troops
Now that's something. So the US were not worried enough to enter the war by the German conquests of Poland, Norway, Holand, Belgium and France; by the Soviet invasion of Poland, the conquest of the Baltic States and the attack against Finland; by the Italian invasions of Egypt, Greece and France and their attacks on Malta; and by the British Islands being under German attack; but they were going to be worried by the hypothetical future growth of the forces of what one of the poorest countries of Europe at the time? :lol:

Now to return to the original purpose of the thread, that was:
Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?
the obvious answer is:
Why would have Hitler invaded Spain? There was nothing to obtain there. If would have been a liability for a Germany fully oriented to the war against the Soviet Union. A German-conquered Spain would have been a soft back open to invasion by the Allies, another far land to which many troops would have to be sent to garrison it, a country that would have to be feed, probably a guerrilla war that would dwarfed that of Yugoslavia, and an army that, even if it wanted to colaborate with the Germans (and that's is highly unlikely in the case of a German invasion) was in no shape to do it.

first, taking alook at German artillery production for 1940 and 1941; the important 50mm AT (both PZGr39 &40) 285 plus 313 were made in 1940/41 and 336 and 953 were made in 1941: All of these AT guns would be needed on the East Front on June 1941; (the 50mm AT soon had trouble with the Soviet heavy KV-1 tanks & T-34); not enough AT production for Spanish forces particulary after June 22 1941;

The 75mm Pak 40 aAT gun that would count against Allied tanks did not make an appearance in production untill the next year 1942. Spanish forces would probably not get any of these first productions of the Pak 40 as the other Axis Allies,. and the German army has to wait;

German 88mm Flak guns ,(used as anti-tanks guns) were all needed on the east front (porduction was on average close to 100 guns a month and less in 1940)



Trucks (including French captured truck) and Fuel were all to go to the East Front and not back to Spain.;

Franco conditions for joining the Axis asked for Germany to equip and fuel Spanish Forces. the original question of the thread was what was the drawback to Hitler when and after he invaded Spain. For the reasons above Hitler did not want the problem and difficulty to equip effective weapons to the Spanish army which its start would be indefinitly postponed. Therefore, Hitler did not give German war production the same situation/problem of equipping the Spanish Army if either Hitler invaded Spain or Spain joined the Axis if Hitler agreed to supply the weapons and fuel Franco wanted..

So why are you taking upon yourself and posting you "already told me" about the German war production situation in 1940 or 1941;

However,Spain joining the Axis in 1941 if Spain did nothing at all but remain intact as a country would have encouraged pro Axis sympathizers in Iraq and Turkey; as they would begin to see an enormous population advantage for the Axis as the Soviet Union became depleted by the huge encirclements of the German offensives in summer and fall of 1941. Early entry into the War by Turkey in 1941 would mean accelerated Chromite supplies for German weapons production (which otherwise would have to wait until Jan 1943 for Turkish supplies to start). Not impossible in my estimation, that this Chromite boost would stimulate much higher weapons production in 1942. but thats a what IF More weapons in 42 might mean more spin off weapons for the Axis Allies.as Operation blue becomes successful. and another what IF

Britains (8th Army) priority as Hitler invaded Russia was to protect the Suez canal and ultimately squash pro Axis possiblities in the Middle East;

In my assessment;An invasion of Spain after Gibraltar was lost means Britain would have to supply thru the coast of Africa or Spain to support military actions against Spain with the Submarine war unsubdued, with high losses yet to come to Britains merchant tonnage.(until US entry reverses this) Although the Battle of Alamien would not be affected, I believe; So Spain in the Axis after taking Gibraltar would coast for awhile unless the US was triggered for early US entry. Although Britains opportunity comes with Barbarossa and Germany total committment there (except for DAK) expecting the US to follow on soon if Spain is attacked by Britain at this time,-- most of Britains transports, however, are in transit;
However, getting Italy to quit the war in mid 1943 from aAllied forces built up in Spain as opposed to taking Tunisia and conquering Sicily (for the P-47 fighter bomber base to attack Italy, and removing 10 million Italians from the war.) Is another extrapolation to go into.

Although Oconner rounded up the Italian army in the desert with a few maltida heavy tanks; Spain has fortified cities and the mountains to delay until help arrives.;

However, I agree the drawbacks in a German invasion of Spain in terms of equipping the Spanish Army; German reliance on Spain successfully defend itself whenever the Allied invasion comes; and Spanish Forces outside of Spain if increased to a Corps equipped as best as possible would not accomplish much (as Ironmachine has pointed out.) as opposed to reversing these drawbacks with unexpected Middle East supplies and additional fighter bonuses;and a longer possible Italian hold out past 1943,and allied timetable delay. --may be closer to where Ironmachine puts it-no chance for the Spain in the Axis whatever happens. But I don't go as far as no chance..

Although I recognise the speed of the war fought by the industrialized Allies backed by their resources and their advanced war machine moves to quickly relative to in practical terms almost all Spanish effective rearmanant on the most competitive levels. Truly extroadinary circumstances, some would say impossible,and I find it hard to disagree, would have to take place in terms of reversals for the Allies to give Spain in the Axis a chance to arm with the necessary numbers of heavy AT guns,mortars and ammo, and MBTs/Tank Destroyers and AAA artillery to cover a target, to count, among some other factors.(Although these numbers of weapons for Spain need not be as large as one might expect, the Spanish would have to make good use of the minimum all the time)

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

#29

Post by webmill » 08 Dec 2007, 01:39

Torretta13 wrote:.. If closing off the Mediterranean and seizing Gibraltar really would have been so vital to the German war effort, why didn't Hitler simply give Franco an ultimatum: either become an active participant in the war, or suffer the same fate was everyone else on continental Europe. There is no way that Spain could have resisted a German invasion, and since Franco was not doing anything to assist Hitler anyway, what would the drawbacks have been to issuing such an utlimatum, especially if it would have enabled Germany to block the British Navy from using the Mediterranean? Any thoughts or responses, would be appreciated. Thanks.
ironmachine quote:
Now, do not be too excited about my statement about Gibraltar.I think Spanish Forces could have taken Gibraltar at the end of 1940 or the begining of 1941. even without Luftwaffe support.
ironmachine quote:
So what are you talking about?

The fall of Gibraltar into Germans hands by extrapolation of a German invasion of Spain to take Gibraltar; leads into a debate on the value of Gibraltar to the Axis and an Axis Gibraltar in late 1940 or early 1941 (the German invasion times of Spain); therefore what is the value of an Axis Gibralter before US entry into the war?
with Spain, now, in the Axis camp as a result of this German Seizure of Gibraltar; and the upcoming invasion of the Soviet Union in June 22 1941 (or sooner in April/May 41); the Allies would survive very well thank you although Gibraltar is now Axis....why is this??
I would think that the Allies reassurance in this case is that although Gibraltar is now Axis the Germans and Italians would not change enough their combat results if their strategy doesn't change in the war on other fronts such as the Med, thats not Eastern front, , .; But , maybe, the Allies could count on Germany and the Axis on hanging themselves concerning the use of their attempt to acculmulate valuable remaining military assets on these other fronts thru victory without terrible losses (in relation to their behind war production).;..reducing an Axis Gibraltar to a detour for British shipping to go around the African horn...and not alot more.

The stakes are higher for the desert campaign if Rommel can take the Suez canal; making the Allies start over and behind timetable in the Med giving more time (a number of months probably; if a year then some success is likely)) to the Axis Allies (including Spain to improve their rearmaent)So continues the question of Axis Allies rearmanent.and equipment and its relation to the German war effort.

the Air War in the Med was a key; Germany set themselves up by not increasing combat aircraft production during 1942 to 1943 (production figures for both years remained basically the same at 5,000 aircraft made.)High attrition of luftwaffe warplanes from the battle of Britain, air combat over Malta and the high attrition on the East Front would remain the same basically, I believe, preventing the Luftwaffe from accumulating fighter/bomber strength as a result of victory on the ground during 1940,1941 and into 1942.
the Italian Air force did count but much depended on its initiative and selection of combat missions.. The capture of Gibraltar should set up a chain of different strategies for Germany and Italy concerning particulary in new strategic use of the luftwaffe and Regia Aureonautica; mostly of the conserve combat aircraft of fighter and bomber types; preserving the Luftwaffe ability to successfully make attacks at sea versus Allied ships held in reserve; for defensive missions such as an attempt to invade Spain or Italy by the allies to early in the war.
German surface raiders and submarines might also be in a different chain of [/i]events as a result of an Axis Gibraltar ; so might the German use of Crete; so might the use of DAK. so might the battle over Malta,(theres more this is not the complete list).But in the premise here the Germans along with Axis allies will , according to Allied expectation, and change nothing significantly here also. the Bismark will still be sunk at an exchange of a British BB.: and the German parachute corp will still stop future drop operations after Crete.; Malta should be reduced in importance but DAK will still start an offensive in N Africa, rather than be in reserve for defense or on the East Front.; Ultimately if the Wehrmachts back is still broken on the East front; no strategy change as a result of an Axis Gibraltar will save the Axis from the combined power of the US/G.Britain in 1944.
particulary if there is US early entry into the war as a result of a US fear of too much Axis success.And early US entry may/will change the chain of events. described above, further

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#30

Post by [email protected] » 08 Dec 2007, 20:05

''But I suppose Operation Gisela would be the entry of the Wehrmacht in Spain, not a typical German invasion with the overthrew of Franco government and the setup of a German occupation administration and the subsequent chase of the Spanish jews.
I guess that in the case of Operation Felix or Operation Gisela the occupation of Spain would be something like Rommel troops in Lybia or German troops in Rumania in October 1940. The Wehrmacht was there but protecting the country not invading and occupyng it.

Excuse my grammar and ortography (including this last word).


Panzertruppe2001''


Very true. But the operation would have been viewed as an invasion by the Spanish Government whatever the intentions of the Germans really were. Spanish generals along the Pyrenean frontier indicated clearly to their German counterparts that they would resist any incursion of the German Army into Spanish territory+

A.K.

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