Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by webmill » 29 Oct 2008 16:28

The 210mm Morser was introduced in 1939.and Krupp was requested to improve it and as a result came out with the 210mm K38. Production was stopped in 1942 and seven 210 mm K38 guns made for the German Army and one sent to Japan. Source. The Guns: 1939-45 Ian V. Hogg, Ballatine Books.

The Rochling shell-made from chrome-vanadium steel, long at 102 inches and fin stabilised, had thick shell walls designed to penetrate 12 to 14 feet of concrete,and were in time with quantities available to penetrate frontier Polish, French and Soviet forts. Source. The Guns:1939-45 Ballatine Books



In another area of weapons, ammunition, Hitler wanted to preserve the German advantage and not stimulate the enemy to compete with a successful product in 1940 and, I would assume, in 1941 before Barbarossa; is the Rochling shell:, Hitler confined its combat use to fewer occassions, Hitlers fear being a dud will fall into enemy hands and a copy made--and again before Barbarossa.



Hitler in Berlin Sept 17,1940 to the Spanish Minister "It was sure...that one could not long resist the attack of a divebombing group of Junkers 88 and that, at the approach of this, ... the English fleet would immediately get away from Gibraltar and the entire vicinity."

The Germans had made the super heavy Karl 600mm howitzer in 1939, and on tracks. Its use for a Gibraltar assault very high,although Hitler reassured the Spanish in his conversations Sept.1940 that he preferred to use the Ju-87 Stuka if a Gibraltar assault was to take place,as the Spanish Minister "declared...for placing artillery...the Spanish considered ten 380 mm guns necessary for Gibraltar",

as more chances of hitting the tight spot artillery positions of Gibraltar seems more likely than one or two heavy guns. but the 600 mm Karls' appearance would also panic the world, particulary the US and Britain I would assume, and including the Soviet Union in late 1940 or early 1941, possibly triggering the Russian Communists to seek help from the Western Capitalists while the Nazi Soviet pact is still valid; a secret enemy event Hitler didn't want before Barbarossa. Other consequences of the Soviets being alerted due to panic would be withdrawing the Frontier armies and airfields into the interior for a more close combat resisting fight

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by webmill » 29 Oct 2008 23:59

In March 1942 Su-2 production was discontinued at the Molotov plant. Source. airpages.ru ,attack aircraft Soviet Union

But the Su-2 as an attack combat aircraft, not as an extreme precision divebombing aircraft for ground support ,was successful, particulary on the SouthWestern Front. Close to an American divebomber in ground support, I would say..although I am under the impression the SU-2 did not have large divebrakes and not installed after June 1941.

However, the Su-2 was classified as an attack plane in June 1941 and not a divebomber and therefore the Su-2 needed to start with divebrakes.To have any divebrakes installed on existing Su-2 planes in service before June 1941 and in the month following the invasion, would take, I estimate 4 weeks at the factory;and, I speculate still a worry for Hitler.

Why would Hitler concentrate on the Su-2? As a two seater, it would not switch well to a fighter and the Su-2 would not necessarily need a highly developed divebomb sight; if it was easy to mass produce, it would also be expendable and have the potential to do alot of damage from high mass produced numbers.particulary if kept in reserve

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Post by webmill » 31 Jan 2009 16:26

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 31 Jan 2009 18:51

webmill wrote:However, Spain must have locomotives as part of the Spanish rail system also. Why not use a Spanish locomotive for the replacement of a damaged German locomotive on strategic material rail transport through the Balkans?

Well, the basic problem was that Spain had a broad track gauge of 1674 mm, so the few old locomotives that survived the SCW would have been of no use elsewhere. :)

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by webmill » 31 Jan 2009 20:44

Ironmachine wrote:Well, the basic problem was that Spain had a broad track gauge of 1674 mm, so the few old locomotives that survived the SCW would have been of no use elsewhere.


Yes, that is the Iberian gauge

I would think, the Spanish 1674mm gauge is a Spanish contrivance (a capacity original based on Spains import/export by sea,for example) for old standard locomotives.
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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 31 Jan 2009 23:53

Just out of curiosity, what was that German Plan for a 1940 invasion of Spain that you are talking about? The way you talk about it makes me think that you believe that such a plan existed.

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Post by webmill » 01 Feb 2009 00:53

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 01 Feb 2009 08:57

You are mixing quite a number of very different concepts here, and I'm having some trouble trying to understand you. But in any case, you are taking much more than "some liberty" with Operation Felix. This was not a plan to invade Spain, but a plan to attack Gibraltar with some German troops, having complete collaboration from Spain. It was not to be taken into practice without spanish cooperation; in fact, it could not be taken into practice without Spanish cooperation.
If you want to transform Operation Felix (which, IIRC, was never planned to the last details) into a full-scale invasion of Spain (and I still can't see what could have moved Hitler to try such an enterprise; Gibraltar and some useless locomotives just don't seem much enticing), you will need plenty of time and plenty of troops. You simply can't take a pair of panzer divisions that have just finished the French campaign and throw them into Spain. No matter how weak the Spanish forces were, this is not going to work. Even the forces intended for Operation Felix, a pair of army corps, would not be enough to conquer the country, not even counting the troops needed to garrison Spain once it is conquered. Such an operation would have needed a complete reworking of the timetables and orders of battle for Operation Barbarrosa.
But perhaps the main problem is that taking Gibraltar only makes some sense if German strategy is going to change into a "Britain-first" kind of policy. If after all Hitler is going to attack the Soviet Union before completely defeating Great Britain, an invasion of Spain makes very little sense.

Anyway, this is going to far away for the topic of this thread. If you are interested in exploring those possibilities, it would be more appropriate that you do it in What if? section.

Regards.

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Post by webmill » 01 Feb 2009 15:08

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by estrategia » 12 Mar 2009 18:20

Well think of Spain as Afghanistan. Not the best terrain to use mobile military hardware. Tanks would be useless, for the most par, unless they where used in the Mediterranean coast. Then we have the issue of Spain having a Civil War where two million Spaniards died; this is important. Spain had military experience. a great historian called Shams De Mol said once "that those who have military experience die slower". This is true. Spain's army was poor, but not inefficient. This is a concept to understand during wars. Low military supply doesn't always end up in disadvantage. Look at the USA and Afghanistan. Spanish gorilla cells where technically speaking the most efficient cells in the world at that style of warfare and the founders of that style. They just to blow up rail roads, and where experts at explosives during the Civil War. This would affect German supplies heavily. Then you have the mountains and the population who had nothing to lose thanks to starvation and low efficiency living. Entering Spain would have been initially easy for Hitler, but staying is another story. No German soldier would of felt safe. It would of been HELL for Hitler to invade Spain, because he was used to fighting Army vs Army, but not Guerrilla Warfare, and Spain where the best at this style of fighting at that time. Hitler never invaded Spain for the reason that he would have had a lot of problems to begging with. He had to fight different fronts, everywhere with England, Russia and an emerging USA. To enter Iberia Hitler would of needed massive amount of troops. Spain would of been strategical crucial for Hitler because he would of transported OIL trough the coast of Morocco and this would of save him a lot of time, also making fighting directly with England and refuel when needed. Oil means life in WAR.
People tend to forget that there is a reason why Hitler invaded France and not Spain. In terms of strategical plans, Spain would of been more important. But since Spain had military experience, and Hitler was big fan of Napoleon, he probably thought of that option twice. : )
For those who say that he wouldn't attack a friend. Well interest comes first, then friends. Serrano never trusted Hitler, nether did Franco.

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Mar 2009 20:40

estrategia wrote:Tanks would be useless, for the most par, unless they where used in the Mediterranean coast.

That is a wild exageration by any account. Parts of Spain are difficult for tank combat, but to say that tanks would have been useless is simply untruth. Just remember that in the SCW tanks were used in all fronts.

Then we have the issue of Spain having a Civil War where two million Spaniards died

Two million Spaniards died in the Civil War? That is a pure fantasy. Please provide a source.

Spanish gorilla cells where technically speaking the most efficient cells in the world at that style of warfare and the founders of that style. They just to blow up rail roads, and where experts at explosives during the Civil War.

Gorilla cells? Hey, this is not Africa, there are no monkeys in Spain. :wink:
Now, seriously, Founders of guerrilla war may be, but the most efficient in the world? Guerrilla war was a relative minor event during the SCW, and so more so after the war. In any case, other countries did it well enough; they didn't need lessons from Spain.

It would of been HELL for Hitler to invade Spain, because he was used to fighting Army vs Army, but not Guerrilla Warfare, and Spain where the best at this style of fighting at that time.

The German Army fought guerrillas in many other places, and Spain would have been no different. The success of the Germans would have depended on the number of troops available, not on any special ability of the Spanish people.

Hitler never invaded Spain for the reason that he would have had a lot of problems to begging with.

Hitler had a lot of problems in many other places, and that did not prevent him from invading them. Now, if you change this to Hitler would have had a lot of problems for very little advantages...

Spain would of been strategical crucial for Hitler because he would of transported OIL trough the coast of Morocco and this would of save him a lot of time, also making fighting directly with England and refuel when needed.

Can you please explain this?

People tend to forget that there is a reason why Hitler invaded France and not Spain. In terms of strategical plans, Spain would of been more important.

In terms of strategic plans, as Hitler's attention was fixed on the Soviet Union, Spain was of little importance.

...and Hitler was big fan of Napoleon, he probably thought of that option twice.

A pity that the big fan of Napoleon didn't think twice before invading the Soviet Union. :wink:

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by estrategia » 13 Mar 2009 18:47

That is a wild exageration by any account. Parts of Spain are difficult for tank combat, but to say that tanks would have been useless is simply untruth. Just remember that in the SCW tanks were used in all fronts.


Tanks would have a lot of barriers in the peninsula. Tanks act better in the flat regions, but are not as effective in rocky regions. I stated before that tank predominance would of have happen along the coast line.

Two million Spaniards died in the Civil War? That is a pure fantasy. Please provide a source.


Truth is no one knows how many people died. Many spaniards at the time werent census by the gorverment, these they call the no names. some say 300.000 thousand, other sources talk about 1.000.000 and some historians talk about 2.000.000 max. whatever it might be they discover mass graves every know and then, in spain.


Gorilla cells? Hey, this is not Africa, there are no monkeys in Spain. :wink:
Now, seriously, Founders of guerrilla war may be, but the most efficient in the world? Guerrilla war was a relative minor event during the SCW, and so more so after the war. In any case, other countries did it well enough; they didn't need lessons from Spain.


They do have gorillas in the zoo, just dont give them weapons.
Well they had a civil war experience. Many explosive experts. Spain is massive, and caves are not scarce. Is perfect land for Guerrilla Warfare. I cant think of another country that could of had previous civil war experience at the time and had a landmark that hard to conquer. Russia had the weather, but not terrain.

The German Army fought guerrillas in many other places, and Spain would have been no different. The success of the Germans would have depended on the number of troops available, not on any special ability of the Spanish people
.

Hitler fought uprising but not cells. You miss judge a lot of things. Guerrillas and Cells would give Hitler a "Stomach an Ulcer" Hitler would crush the Spanish Army, but not the Guerrillas. History is on my side at this point. Looking at the Moors, and Napoleon, and the Romans shows this factor. It is easy to enter Spain, but to stay is a different story.

Hitler had a lot of problems in many other places, and that did not prevent him from invading them.


Well that shows that Hitler must of thought of conquering Spain as a last alternative, which never happened.

Can you please explain this?


Well one of the major factors why Spain never joined the WW2 was because Franco demanded Hitler that he wanted Tunez, and Algecira. Franco wanted to engage in war with England, while Churchill saw that as treat. Churchill didnt want spain to join the war, but hitler did. Hitler wanted the Algerciras front, so that way he would get oil directly from places like libia, to reinforce his army with fuel. Algeciras was strategical, for Franco and Hitler. Even more than the Canaries.

In terms of strategic plans, as Hitler's attention was fixed on the Soviet Union, Spain was of little importance.


Well russia was comunist, but russia is not an strategical front. Rusia is not close to england or any major threat for germany at the time. Spain in the other hand, would be a key center to invade england, and the usa.

A pity that the big fan of Napoleon didn't think twice before invading the Soviet Union. :wink:


He should of never pissed off those russians. lol

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Mar 2009 21:23

estrategia wrote:Tanks would have a lot of barriers in the peninsula. Tanks act better in the flat regions, but are not as effective in rocky regions. I stated before that tank predominance would of have happen along the coast line.

Tanks would have a lot of barriers in the peninsula... as in many other countries. There is a very great difference between what you say now and the "useless" statement that you made previously. And you did not stated that tank predominance would have happened along the coast line; you only talked about the Mediterranean coast.
Anyway, just to clarify this point:
1) Tanks were used everywhere during the SCW without many difficulties, as I have previously stated.
2) The Spanish Army retained a significative tank park after the war and tried to build many more, and when that failed tried to buy as many as possible. I do not think that they would have tried to have a "useless" weapon.
3) The German Army intended to use mechanized and tank forces in Operation Felix, and they had a good knowledge of the terrain from the SCW and studies made before the planning. I think they should have know whether they could use tanks or not...

estrategia wrote:Truth is no one knows how many people died. Many spaniards at the time werent census by the gorverment, these they call the no names. some say 300.000 thousand, other sources talk about 1.000.000 and some historians talk about 2.000.000 max. whatever it might be they discover mass graves every know and then, in spain.

If no one knows how many people died, you should not make such bold statements as:
Then we have the issue of Spain having a Civil War where two million Spaniards died

Anyway, I'm well aware of some who say 300,000 and of others that talk about 1,000,000, but I'm still waiting for a serious source claiming 2,000,000 deaths in the SCW.

estrategia wrote:Well they had a civil war experience. Many explosive experts. Spain is massive, and caves are not scarce. Is perfect land for Guerrilla Warfare. I cant think of another country that could of had previous civil war experience at the time and had a landmark that hard to conquer. Russia had the weather, but not terrain.

Despite the glamorous image of the guerrilla, the fact is that guerrilla warfare played a very little, almost negligible, part in the SCW. And despite the glamorous view of the "maquis", it was almost equally ineffective after the SCW. Nothing comparable to Yugoslavia or Russia in World War II.

estrategia wrote:Hitler fought uprising but not cells. You miss judge a lot of things. Guerrillas and Cells would give Hitler a "Stomach an Ulcer" Hitler would crush the Spanish Army, but not the Guerrillas. History is on my side at this point. Looking at the Moors, and Napoleon, and the Romans shows this factor. It is easy to enter Spain, but to stay is a different story.

History tells us otherwise. The Romans conquered Spain and there they remained, never expelled; they were simply conquered by newcomers. The Moors remained about seven centuries in control of parts of Spain, so I do not think that Hitler was to be worried by their example (not even going into deeper considerations). And Napoleon, despite the novelesque picture of the Independence War that some have, was not defeated by the guerrilla; Spanish field armies, Wellington and his British and Portuguese forces, and the need to withdraw forces for his main armies were much more important in the French defeat in Spain. Guerrilla certainly helped, but it was far from being the main cause.

estrategia wrote:Well one of the major factors why Spain never joined the WW2 was because Franco demanded Hitler that he wanted Tunez, and Algecira. Franco wanted to engage in war with England, while Churchill saw that as treat. Churchill didnt want spain to join the war, but hitler did. Hitler wanted the Algerciras front, so that way he would get oil directly from places like libia, to reinforce his army with fuel. Algeciras was strategical, for Franco and Hitler. Even more than the Canaries.

First, I suppose you are talking about Algiers, not about Algeciras, because if you are really talking about Algeciras then you are really at a lost. In that case, it has nothing to do with Spain. Algiers was a French colony.
Second, it is doubtful whether the Lybian oil could have been exploited during the war; see, for example,
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2181&hilit=oil+lybia
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=521&p=1937&hilit=oil+lybia#p1937
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=59630
Third, even if the Lybian oil could be obtained, transporting it from Lybia to Germany by going through Spain is simply stupid. Simpler, quicker and safer to go directly across the Mediterraneum. It will always be far easier to take Malta than to take Spain.
In terms of strategic plans, as Hitler's attention was fixed on the Soviet Union, Spain was of little importance.

estrategia wrote:Well russia was comunist, but russia is not an strategical front. Rusia is not close to england or any major threat for germany at the time. Spain in the other hand, would be a key center to invade england, and the usa.

Spain could have been important to fight Great Britain, but would have been of no consecuence for an invasion of England. And that without considering that the Germans had no means to invade England, and the USA could not have been safer even if on another planet. But anyway, Hitler's attention was fixed in the Soviet Union. He had no interest in delaying the invasion of the Soviet Union to defeat Great Britain first, and Spain would have added nothing of interest for an Eastern campaing. So why would have he invade Spain?

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by bf109 emil » 15 Mar 2009 08:34

He disliked the pain of pulled teeth..

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Re: Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?

Post by Ironmachine » 15 Mar 2009 09:05

So Spain was saved by a lack of anesthesia. :lol:

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