German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

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FarKenal
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German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by FarKenal » 04 Apr 2008 03:57

I’ve just recently read about the whole Rudolph Hess incident and was wondering what you guys here though about some of the events that are not so widely known. Which is that it seems Hitler made a peace offering attempt to the Allies after their crushing victory over Poland, but this wasn’t taken seriously. Then after Frances defeat is of what seems a total mystery involving Rudolph Hess and his flight to Scotland.

My understanding from this, is that Hitler wanted a peace with Britain to free himself of a possible second front in the lead up to his intending fight against the Soviets. Of which Hess had been secretly talking to King George the 4th and his brother (duke of Kent) and the Duke of Hamilton who both opposed Churchill and wanted him out of office, (Churchill’s popularity was at an all time low had just endured a vote of no-confidence in the house of commons 3 days earlier, so this was a real possibility). Apparently the German and British contacts were supposed to meet in Sweden about the peace proposal where Germany would reinstate free Governments of its occupied countries in the West and pull out with the sole exceptions of Luxemburg, Alsace and the Lorraine. However things were not coming together and Hess (with Hitler’s official approval) flew to Scotland as he felt it was too important to leave to anyone else and could not stand the thought of a prolonged and bloody war, other say Hitler hand picked him for the mission to show his absolute seriousness for the deal. This view is partly supported by a letter addressed to Hitler (that was in the possession of Hess’s wife) that says “if the mission fails you could always say I was mad”. In addition is the fact that Hitler had ordered one of the biggest bomber raids on London ever, that very same night. 520 bombers were sent in constant waves that certainly maintained the RAF’s main attention that night.

However a letter to the British Duke coming through Portugal was detected by a public censor and Churchill was warned of what was going on. Consequently upon Hess’s landing, (for which it seems was a farcical attempt to cover) Churchill had him arrested and interrogated for any military intelligence. At this point it would seem the Dukes attempt to court Hess’s peace proposal was serious, (unlike claims that MI5 cleverly deceived him to coming, without the dukes knowledge) as upon his capture Hess asked to see two specific German POW’s currently being held in Britain. And these two men were being held in lower England, yet just days before Hess’s arrival they were secretly transferred to a camp just miles from Hess’s landing. These two men were to help Hess in some manner during the peace talks and the fact there was no official documents/authority to transfer these men, makes it seem like the Dukes involvement was genuine (Why transfer them and allow them to talk to Hess initially after his capture if the trick to invite him over had already worked, and Hess couldn’t of known before leaving that they had indeed be moved to see him, since even the British Government couldn’t find any evidence for their transfer. Only the fact that they weren’t where they were supposed to be is the proof to the Government someone had bypassed internal security). Furthermore if it was the Intelligence service, that knew exactly when and where he was going to be, why was he in custody of the Home Guard for fours hours? Surely they would have had hundreds of men all of the area waiting.

Two days later after Hess departure it was only then that Goebbels announced that Hess had all of a sudden gone mad and subtly tried to avoid hints of a possible peace mission. If Germany had of admitted his was on a peace mission it would of being irrevocably obvious to the Russians that Hitler was indeed about to attack, and not to mention undermine his power and seen as weak if he was trying to sue for peace. What was noticeable is that if the Brits did indeed trick Hess into being captured, why didn’t they glorify it, it would have been a propaganda dream. Yet the Brit’s only admitted they in fact had him after the Germans announced his flight on a radio broadcast! Which would imply that some very influential people in Britain were seriously going to hold peace talks with him. Though once Churchill found out after Hess’s plane went of course and was captured by the Home Guard. He for some obscure reasons prevented any possible peace talks.

Instead the British followed and fancifully elaborated on what the Germans had said about him being mad/crazy, because the cat was already out of the bag about his landing and Hess was speaking of his intended peace talks. Though for some reason and this is where I get to the unknown and big part of the story, there must of been a select few in Britain (and probably the only ones) that wanted the war to continue. As a result Churchill claimed that he was a mad man not to be taken seriously and as Hitler said himself (for obvious reasons), did not have his approval for the mission.

At the Nuremberg trials he was convicted as a war criminal, and normally the story would just be left at that. As he was apparently a bit of a loony without Hitler’s authority and not be taken seriously, so they would have it seem the British Government made the correct choice in not entertaining the idea of a peace, even though it could of potentially saved millions of lives and ended Communism.

But why on earth did they go to such lengths to ensure that nothing else was told about his story, like the bizarre levels of security during his life sentence in Spandue prison. Any conversations he ever had where to be at a clearly audible level for the surrounding microphones to be hear, or the conversation was immediately ended by security guards. He never saw his family until 1969 and in fact never requested to see any other visitors or friends. He was never allowed to have any physical contact with anyone other than the doctors he had, in the very many checkups he had to make sure the other guards from US, France and the Soviets never tried to interrogate him for information. Then when it seemed like he was going to be shortly released, and at the age of 93 he was found dead.

From what I have gathered its highly likely he was murdered, as the initial doctors findings of his condition was that he was strangled. One of the nurses testified that on the day the guards significantly delayed the nurse from trying to resuscitate Hess (later official response for this was because they didn’t know where he was at the time!), what the?? He had been the only prisoner left at Spandue for twenty years and given his ridiculously high security measures I find this hard to believe, plus how did they know he needed urgent medical attention if somebody hadn’t found his body. In addition there were two mysterious American guards in uniform that no-one had ever seen before, and they were apparently first at the scene, and then stayed with the nurse during his efforts during in trying to revive Hess. Furthermore the furniture thrown about in his room, were apparently not signs of a struggle but was the result of these two unknown guards trying to make space so that they could try to revive him. Hmmm seems like somebody had a secret that they didn’t want to get out if you ask me. The British government tried to site evidence that on two prior occasions he had tried to commit suicide to disprove foul play, interestingly enough though and just after he died, his family home mysteriously burnt down with all sorts of family papers and documents in there. Given these events it was in my opinion murder.

Further to the conspiracy theories is that Hess was also captured before Germany set about on it’s Holocaust, and there really couldn’t be anything in particular that he be tried for, yet he served more than 20 years longer in prison than any other convicted war criminal Nazi, who had been freed long before.

In conclusion this was all at a time when the Germans had overrun Greece, Rommel was winning in north Africa, U-Boats were sinking thousands of tonnes of allied shipping. What possible reasons could there of been for Churchill to want to continue the war? I’m assuming that someone like Wilhelm Canaris had tipped him off that Germany was about to attack Russia, and they would gain an ally, but why throw away a serious chance for peace? The unusual treatment of Hess and the fact that the British Government refuses to uncensor these files until 2017 must surely mean that a lot more went on behind the scenes….

Can anyone elaborate further on this or please knock me on my arse, as to me it seems to be one big cover up.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by David Thompson » 05 Apr 2008 20:31

FarKenal -- You asked:
Can anyone elaborate further on this or please knock me on my arse, as to me it seems to be one big cover up.
(1) It helps our readers -- who come here for referenced facts, -- and posters who may want to discuss the issues you have raised, if you source the arguments you have presented.

(2) You also wrote:
Of which Hess had been secretly talking to King George the 4th and his brother (duke of Kent) and the Duke of Hamilton who both opposed Churchill and wanted him out of office, (Churchill’s popularity was at an all time low had just endured a vote of no-confidence in the house of commons 3 days earlier, so this was a real possibility).
From the 1941 context of your post, I assume you're referring to the British monarch King George VI (ruled 1936-1952) rather then King George IV, who died in 1830.

FarKenal
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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by FarKenal » 07 Apr 2008 06:15

(1) It helps our readers -- who come here for referenced facts, -- and posters who may want to discuss the issues you have raised, if you source the arguments you have presented.
Yes fair enough and certainly something I should have done. Going to these will involve a lot of reading in which case I’d suggest reading the later two links as I’m more inclined to believe those. The reason why I have listed the first two, is basically to see if anyone believes it or can rationally go to proving them correct, in which case I'd definately like to know more about it. Though after reading the last two links I do believe Churchill was aware of the proposed peace offer in 1940 & 1941, and willing to cede Czechoslovakia and Poland to the Germans. Though for some reason decided against it, possibly the German broadcast declaring him as crazy (I'm guessing here, he missed a some kind of 'check in' that made them believe he was being interogated and there were no peace talks happening). Which then made Churchill panic and resulted in a series of bizarre and contradicting cover ups.

So as far I as can tell, why did the British un-officially consent to the proposed peace offer, then reject it and imprison Hess, and then later after the war actually give the Soviets exactly what they were prepared to cede to the Germans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess
Honestly I dont think much of this wiki site but it gave me alot of initial background information about the peace proposal in the first place. Things like a farm boy shooting down his fighter with a single shot causing it to crash is laughable.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p291_Anon.html
I dont believe this article has many points correct and the whole idea that was a trap doesn't go to explain why it was of all people a farmer who found Hess and turned him over to Home Guards who had him for four hours before any other military personell showed up. If it was a trap, they would of surely had thousands of men ready and waiting to capture the Deputy Fuhrer, near where he was expected. I think I'm very safe to believe myself right here, given that he was only 10 kilometers from his destination, which was actually pretty good for back in those days.

http://www.leninimports.com/rudolf_hess ... oyals.html
I’m very inclined to believe most of the statements made by this site, and rationale

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index ... =9208&st=0
This is another similar axis history forum and the topics posted by John Simkin seem to be very knowledgeable and believable. It certainly makes for a long read though very worthwhile and compelling reading.

From the 1941 context of your post, I assume you're referring to the British monarch King George VI (ruled 1936-1952) rather then King George IV, who died in 1830.
That’d be the one.

Hop
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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by Hop » 08 Apr 2008 16:14

Is there any evidence to support the theories presented?

The evidence I know of contradicts the conspiracy claims. For example, the written orders and recollections of those around Hitler at the time, which show that Hitler was taken completely by surprise when he received the news about Hess.

The supporting "evidence" seems to be conjecture, often based on misleading interpretations. For example:
Churchill’s popularity was at an all time low had just endured a vote of no-confidence in the house of commons 3 days earlier, so this was a real possibility
The result of the vote of confidence was 447 in favour, 3 against, which hardly suggests the government was in trouble. A public opinion poll a month later showed 87% of the British public supported Churchill.
In addition is the fact that Hitler had ordered one of the biggest bomber raids on London ever, that very same night. 520 bombers were sent in constant waves that certainly maintained the RAF’s main attention that night.
The Germans were of course bombing Britain at every opportunity, it was the height of the Blitz. British air defences were organised in to 4 Groups, 10 Group covered the west, 11 Group the SE of England, 12 Group the Midlands, 13 Group the north of England and Scotland. A raid against 11 Group would have no effect on 13 Group, which would remain on alert.
But why on earth did they go to such lengths to ensure that nothing else was told about his story, like the bizarre levels of security during his life sentence in Spandue prison. Any conversations he ever had where to be at a clearly audible level for the surrounding microphones to be hear, or the conversation was immediately ended by security guards. He never saw his family until 1969 and in fact never requested to see any other visitors or friends. He was never allowed to have any physical contact with anyone other than the doctors he had, in the very many checkups he had to make sure the other guards from US, France and the Soviets never tried to interrogate him for information.
The conditions at Spandau were pretty severe. But that's down to the Soviets, and applied to all prisoners, not just Hess.

As an example, from Tales from Spandau, Nazi Criminals and the Cold War by Norman Goda, detailing actions following the discovery of a piece of chocolate in Konstantin von Neurath's cell:
Alabjev countered that von Neurath was the guilty party and that "|von Neurath| should be punished severely for illegal possession of chocolate. Three searches of the cells were carried out the evening of July 7. the last near midnight, and on (he nights of ihe July 11, July 11, July 13, July ±0, and July 15, the Soviet warders carried out midnight and post midnight searches of each cell. In such searches, the prisoners had to stand for twenty minutes outside the cells and then take another thirty minutes to clean the cells before they could return to sleep. Alabjev was determined that von Ncurath say where the chocolate had come from, but von Ncurath would not budge. "Tell who gave it to you," insisted Alabjev, "We already know anyhow." "Then you know more than I," said a tired, but stubborn von Neurath. To twist the screws, Alabjev disallowed a joint visit by von Neurath s wife and daughter. Joint visits, though never within regulations, had been allowed for some time.
But the effect ol the searches on von Neurath, who by the summer of 1954 could barely dress himself each morning, was distressing. The American prison physician Major Wright reported that the night searches, if they were to continue, could easily kill him, and at the prison governors' meetings of July 15 and July 23, the three Western governors complained that Soviet actions were inhuman, beyond all proportion to security concerns, and that they endangered the life of von Neurath and possibly Funk as well. The British in West Berlin called a commandants' meeting to discuss options.1
Von Neurath's condition did not improve. At the start of August, the American month in the chair. Major Wright posted a note on von Neurath'$ cell door that the prisoner was not to be disturbed at night. Mogilnikov ignored the note and conducted a 1:00 a.m. search, despite protests by the Allied warders on duty.1 " In the early hours of September 1, von Neurath nearly died in his cell and the next morning looked "helpless and broken," according to Speer.177 He was, according to Wright, "more seriously ill than I had ever seen before."1 x Von Ncurath was moved to an oxygen tent and the prison authorities summoned his family to West Berlin to stand by tor his possible death. On their visit, which Alabjev restricted to the allowed thirty minutes, neither Marie nor Winifred were allowed to take his hand; they could only sit at the end of von Neurath's bed.
Things did get better later on, but the Soviets refused all attempts to release Hess. When the German president Gustav Heinemann wrote to the Soviets in 1974 requesting Hess be released, the response from the Soviet embassy was:
A pardon for the Nazi war criminal Rudolf Hess who represents a symbol for the grisly acts and crimes of Nazism and Fascism throughout the world, and who during his long imprisonment has shown no remorse, would be misunderstood by the entire democratic world. Like it or not, an amnesty for Rudolf Hess would signify an amnesty for Nazism and Fascism.
It's not hard to understand the Soviet insistence on punishing Hess. From their point of view his "peacemaking" was simply an attempt to get Britain out of the war so that the Germans could attack the Soviets with a free hand.
From what I have gathered its highly likely he was murdered, as the initial doctors findings of his condition was that he was strangled.
The official post mortem, carried out by a British doctor with observers from the four powers, concluded he had hanged himself. The private autopsy paid for by his family concluded the marks on his neck were not the result of a "typical" hanging. However, the pathologist the family hired had only the body to go on, he had no information about the circumstances the body was found in. Hess did no hang himself in a "typical" fashion, he hanged himself in a sitting/lying position, which means his weight may have been in line with the angle of the rope.
Can anyone elaborate further on this or please knock me on my arse, as to me it seems to be one big cover up.
There is a major logical flaw in the cover up theory. Hess was in British custody from 1941 until 1945 (October 1945, I believe). At that point he was handed over for trial, and was in US custody. He then went on trial, and spent 40 odd years in prison. If Hess had embarrassing information, then the time to kill him would have been in 1945, when Nazis were committing suicide in large numbers, and any secrets Hess knew were about people who were still in positions of power.

FarKenal
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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by FarKenal » 09 Apr 2008 06:24

The result of the vote of confidence was 447 in favour, 3 against, which hardly suggests the government was in trouble. A public opinion poll a month later showed 87% of the British public supported Churchill.
Okay I had no idea that was the exact result of it, from many multiple sources that I’ve read they have all continually suggested that he was in real danger of being sacked as Prime Minister, and the heat was on him so bad, that its partially the reason why he ordered Wavell to immediately launch operation battleaxe with all haste. As we know all Wavell said he needed more time to wait, Churchill though wanted an immediate victory though to support him in his job, and as we all know, battleaxe failed and it was Wavell who got the sack.
The conditions at Spandau were pretty severe. But that's down to the Soviets, and applied to all prisoners, not just Hess.

As an example, from Tales from Spandau, Nazi Criminals and the Cold War by Norman Goda, detailing actions following the discovery of a piece of chocolate in Konstantin von Neurath's cell:
Yes I agree that some of these convicted war criminals should have been sentenced to death for their crimes, despite that though I’d think Hess of being the Nazi you would of thought least likely to be in jail for war crimes, the last of all the other convicted Nazi’s had been released decades earlier than his eventual death. Which typically raises questions.

Hess wasn’t allowed to see his family for the first 29 years in jail (possibly they hoped he’d die of old age and eventually bowed down to public support). He was only allowed to see one member of his family once a month, and it could never be the same person twice in a row. From what I also understand the vast majority of security guards were selected on the basis that they couldn’t speak German, as they didn’t want him able to talk to anyone.

Things did get better later on, but the Soviets refused all attempts to release Hess. When the German president Gustav Heinemann wrote to the Soviets in 1974 requesting Hess be released, the response from the Soviet embassy was:
As for the release I’m not sure how true it is, but I’m sure I’ve also read on at least two sites (most likely two of the links I supplied, probably the bottom two). That it was the British who publically tried to push for the release of Hess, to the Russians who were supposedly the only ones preventing him from being released. Though they also secretly made damn sure behind the scenes that this would never happen.

There is a major logical flaw in the cover up theory. Hess was in British custody from 1941 until 1945 (October 1945, I believe). At that point he was handed over for trial, and was in US custody. He then went on trial, and spent 40 odd years in prison. If Hess had embarrassing information, then the time to kill him would have been in 1945, when Nazis were committing suicide in large numbers, and any secrets Hess knew were about people who were still in positions of power.
From what I also understand though is that due to an absolute wave of public demand he was on the absolute verge of being released (I’m only 26 so can’t personally recall). And this combined with a statement of the Tunisian born nurse on duty that day and how he recalled the events of the day. I’d likely think it was murder, though would think otherwise if it’s likely that this guy along with a host of others, was just distorting events so that he could release a book and make some money etc?

So yes I agree this is to me is one of the trickiest parts of the puzzle. I've also read (link at end of paragraph) that Himmler had been knocked off so that it didn’t get out to the Russians that they had also been trying to strike a peace deal with him late in the war, though this was carried out in a day or two after his capture, which sort of made it partly believable that they may of missed a cyanide capsule (despite the fact that they had earlier stripped him of all his original clothing and searched him twice for one). http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/death/PRO_docs_story.html

Additionally unlike Himmler’s peace talks the Russians knew nothing about them and would not of suspected it, unlike Hess who had been on the front of newspapers declaring his intent. I have also read elsewhere that the Russians were still all the way up to the end of the war trying to find out more about the involvement with Hess, and completely distrustful of the whole situation. And to have him ‘conveniently commit suicide’ in a high security prison could potentially set Stalin off (the only person they were scared of finding out any information would be Stalin, and he would’ve known in the blink of an eye it was a cover up, and possibly they feared what his reaction could of been).

Some have also linked one of the British doctors who treated him in this time, as someone who had been conducting deliberate memory loss research for years, and that this treatment of Hess along with a continuous cocktail of drugs is what partially caused his erratic behaviour but mostly importantly was behind his memory loss when he was out in the public domain during the Nuremberg trials. And this method of preventative talking was selected shortly after his capture, so that they can still possibly use him in the future, for either propaganda or as a contact to deal with Hitler, as the war was still undecided and it was only 2 years later that fortunes were unexpectedly reversed.

I think though this is a bit far fetched and would put Hess’s behaviour down to him either just trying to ‘pull one over the judges’ in escaping any sentencing or it was an unwilling result of the drugs used to interrogate him, and nothing more. Would anyone think that the last two links I provided are just people who love conspiracy theories or intelligent and rational construction on pieces of information? Man I cant wait until 2017 when and they finally release the files about it. Indecently though I cant see them ever releasing information on the suspiciously non-accidental plane crashes involving the Prince George (Duke of Kent) and General Sikorski, the head of the Polish government in exile, which have so often been linked to all the conspiracy linked to Hess flight and intended purpose.

peteratwar
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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by peteratwar » 09 Apr 2008 08:45

Firstly, Churchill was not in any danger of being ousted. It was in fact a matter of pride with him that he was the only leader of the war-time belligerents who could have been so removed.

Secondly there was no question of any peace being made. So no cover up. Howevere that of course disappoints all those who love to speculate and look for mysteries everywhere.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by Hop » 09 Apr 2008 08:59

Yes I agree that some of these convicted war criminals should have been sentenced to death for their crimes, despite that though I’d think Hess of being the Nazi you would of thought least likely to be in jail for war crimes, the last of all the other convicted Nazi’s had been released decades earlier than his eventual death.
Hess was the most senior Nazi on trial not to get the death sentence. The Soviet judge voted for the death penalty for Hess.
Hess wasn’t allowed to see his family for the first 29 years in jail
Hess refused to see his family for the first 29 years. Even Hess' son agrees on this.
As for the release I’m not sure how true it is, but I’m sure I’ve also read on at least two sites (most likely two of the links I supplied, probably the bottom two). That it was the British who publically tried to push for the release of Hess, to the Russians who were supposedly the only ones preventing him from being released. Though they also secretly made damn sure behind the scenes that this would never happen.
Well, the British repeatedly called for Hess to be released. The records of the other 4 powers show that, as do British records. The Soviets repeatedly denied the requests to release Hess. Again the records of the other powers show that.

Personally I wasn't aware the British government had that much influence on the Soviets during the cold war. I can't see how the British could force the Soviets to block his release. And of course if it had been true that the British didn't want Hess released, the Soviets could have caused the British government great embarrassment by agreeing to release Hess.
From what I also understand though is that due to an absolute wave of public demand he was on the absolute verge of being released (I’m only 26 so can’t personally recall).
No, not really. There was speculation after his suicide that Gorbachev might have agreed to his release, but it wasn't exactly a hot topic before the event.
And this combined with a statement of the Tunisian born nurse on duty that day and how he recalled the events of the day. I’d likely think it was murder, though would think otherwise if it’s likely that this guy along with a host of others, was just distorting events so that he could release a book and make some money etc?
The chief driver behind the Hess conspiracy claims was his son. However, his son was a neo nazi who was seeking to rehabilitate his father's image, so hardly an unbiased source.
So yes I agree this is to me is one of the trickiest parts of the puzzle. I've also read (link at end of paragraph) that Himmler had been knocked off so that it didn’t get out to the Russians that they had also been trying to strike a peace deal with him late in the war, though this was carried out in a day or two after his capture, which sort of made it partly believable that they may of missed a cyanide capsule (despite the fact that they had earlier stripped him of all his original clothing and searched him twice for one). http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/death/PRO_docs_story.html
Can I suggest you read this page: http://fpp.co.uk/online/05/06/Himmler_DTel_020705b.html

The files Martin Allen relied on were found to be forgeries slipped in to the national archives quite recently (they used letterheadings created on a laser printer, so cannot have been created before the 90s). Martin Allen also relied on a document that later proved to be a forgery for his earlier book on the Duke of Windsor.
Additionally unlike Himmler’s peace talks the Russians knew nothing about them and would not of suspected it, unlike Hess who had been on the front of newspapers declaring his intent. I have also read elsewhere that the Russians were still all the way up to the end of the war trying to find out more about the involvement with Hess, and completely distrustful of the whole situation. And to have him ‘conveniently commit suicide’ in a high security prison could potentially set Stalin off
Stalin was certainly suspicious about secret dealings with Hess. However, I can't really see what he could do if Hess were to be found dead, or even what he would have wanted to do. From Stalin's point of view the British had been negotiating with Hess for a way out of the war, but by 1945 that was a dead issue, as Britain obviously hadn't made a separate peace with Germany.
Some have also linked one of the British doctors who treated him in this time, as someone who had been conducting deliberate memory loss research for years, and that this treatment of Hess along with a continuous cocktail of drugs is what partially caused his erratic behaviour but mostly importantly was behind his memory loss when he was out in the public domain during the Nuremberg trials.
As far as I am aware there is no method of causing amnesia to this day. I could perhaps understand drugs that would cause temporary amnesia whilst they were in the blood stream, but Hess was supervised by US doctors for about a year before the end of the trial.

Regardless, Hess told Speer that his "amnesia" during the trial was an act. His US doctors believed that at the time, too.
Man I cant wait until 2017 when and they finally release the files about it.
You do understand that the only files that haven't been released are those from 1978 onwards? The files concerning what actually went on in 1941 were released in the 90s.
Would anyone think that the last two links I provided are just people who love conspiracy theories or intelligent and rational construction on pieces of information?
Not only is there a lack of evidence to support the theories, there's a lack of logic, too. Hess was free to talk to his lawyers at his trial (where he discussed the secret parts of the Nazi-Soviet pact). He was free to talk to his family and fellow inmates at Spandau. Speer even managed to smuggle his memoirs out of Spandau.

Yet the claim is Speer knew something so terrible it was worth killing him for in 1987, but hadn't been worth killing him for in 1945 - 1986. That doesn't make sense.

It seems to me that ignoring both facts and logic is a classic pattern of conspiracy theories.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by tonyh » 09 Apr 2008 17:51

But again, one is forced to ask...

why a man who was on the verge of release, would suddenly decide to kill himself?

why would a man, crippled with arthritis, a "frozen right shoulder" and unable to raise his left arm shoulder length with the grip of a young child, choose such a method of suicide ( a horizontal hanging ) that would require strength to carry out when he could have simply opened his wrists in the bath quite easily? The man couldn't tie his shoelaces, never mind tie a cord to his neck and a window (both requiring a level of dexterity he didn't possess) and then "hang" himself horizontally.

Also, there was news BEFORE his death that Gorby was talking to President Weizsacker about releasing Hess from Spandau in the spirit of glasnost that had been an identity of Gorbachev's rule.

And what proof is there that Wolf Hess is a neo-nazi.

Tony

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by Hop » 09 Apr 2008 18:38

why a man who was on the verge of release, would suddenly decide to kill himself?
What evidence is there he was on the verge of release?

Even if he were about to be released, a man who has spent 46 years in prison could find the prospect of release very troubling.
why would a man, crippled with arthritis, a "frozen right shoulder" and unable to raise his left arm shoulder length with the grip of a young child, choose such a method of suicide ( a horizontal hanging ) that would require strength to carry out when he could have simply opened his wrists in the bath quite easily? The man couldn't tie his shoelaces, never mind tie a cord to his neck and a window (both requiring a level of dexterity he didn't possess) and then "hang" himself horizontally.
But it doesn't really require much strength. According to Norman Goda the cord Hess used to hang himself was kept tied to the window catch, which was about 4 feet off the ground. Hess merely had to make a loop in the cord, place it around his neck, and slump forward.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by tonyh » 09 Apr 2008 19:41

Hop wrote:
why a man who was on the verge of release, would suddenly decide to kill himself?
What evidence is there he was on the verge of release?

Even if he were about to be released, a man who has spent 46 years in prison could find the prospect of release very troubling.

There was quite a bit of talk about the release of Hess during the mid 80's on the grounds of ill health and human rights. Wolf Hess was sure that his father was to be released soon because of his condition and for a time there were newspaper and magazine reports about it, which he had made his father aware of. The imprisonment of Hess had become quite the embarressment to the three Nations holding him. There were a number of human rights orgs that were also putting in pressure for his release. Hess had more hope of release in 1987 than he ever had before.
why would a man, crippled with arthritis, a "frozen right shoulder" and unable to raise his left arm shoulder length with the grip of a young child, choose such a method of suicide ( a horizontal hanging ) that would require strength to carry out when he could have simply opened his wrists in the bath quite easily? The man couldn't tie his shoelaces, never mind tie a cord to his neck and a window (both requiring a level of dexterity he didn't possess) and then "hang" himself horizontally.
But it doesn't really require much strength. According to Norman Goda the cord Hess used to hang himself was kept tied to the window catch, which was about 4 feet off the ground. Hess merely had to make a loop in the cord, place it around his neck, and slump forward.

Well, actually it WOULD require both the dexterity to tie the knots on both his neck and reach up and tie the other end of the cord to the window frame and it would require some strength to force his own strangulation. Something a man who couldn't even dress himself wouldn't be able to do

It is quite impossible to imagine that a man in Hess' condition would either choose that method of suicide (when other easier choices were open) or be able to even carry it out.

But the most damning evidence against the suicide story is the fact the autopsy showed very clearly that Hess' wounds were completely horizontal (symptomatic of strangulation) and lacked the standard issue V shape that is consistent with hanging or suspension as Dr Spann called it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

There is something downright dirty about Hess's sentence, something dirty about his overlong incarceration (especially when compared with the other nazis and his level of involvement / guilt) and something very fishy about his so-called suicide.

And another thing...AFAIK, during wartime aren't peace envoys allowed to return to their own lines after negotiation (or lack thereof).

Tony



Hop
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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by Hop » 10 Apr 2008 08:17

There was quite a bit of talk about the release of Hess during the mid 80's on the grounds of ill health and human rights. Wolf Hess was sure that his father was to be released soon because of his condition and for a time there were newspaper and magazine reports about it, which he had made his father aware of. The imprisonment of Hess had become quite the embarressment to the three Nations holding him. There were a number of human rights orgs that were also putting in pressure for his release. Hess had more hope of release in 1987 than he ever had before.
All that applies equally to the 70s. Hess was convinced he would be released in 1974 when he turned 80.

One of the new issues in the 80s was Wolf Hess' book Mein Vater Rudolf Hess, published in 1984. He went from demanding the release of his father to according to Goda:
the world should not pity but honour his virtuous father
That didn't go down well with anyone. Bernard Levin, who had campaigned for Hess' release, called the book "shameless and disgusting".
Well, actually it WOULD require both the dexterity to tie the knots on both his neck and reach up and tie the other end of the cord to the window frame
Did you read the quote? The cord was already tied to the window, and was merely looped around the neck.

Regardless, you don't have to "reach up" to tie a cord to a catch 4 feet off the ground.
and it would require some strength to force his own strangulation.
No, you just have to use your weight.
But the most damning evidence against the suicide story is the fact the autopsy showed very clearly that Hess' wounds were completely horizontal (symptomatic of strangulation) and lacked the standard issue V shape that is consistent with hanging or suspension as Dr Spann called it.
Which of course would be the case in a sitting hanging.
There is something downright dirty about Hess's sentence,
In an age when death was the standard penalty for murder, Hess got off very, very lightly.
something dirty about his overlong incarceration (especially when compared with the other nazis and his level of involvement / guilt)
The Soviets had long memories. From their point of view Hess should have been hanged. After all, here was one of the most senior Nazis, who rather than trying to bring peace had tried to create better conditions for war against the Soviet Union. He had then pretended to be mad at his trial to escape punishment.
And another thing...AFAIK, during wartime aren't peace envoys allowed to return to their own lines after negotiation (or lack thereof).
Hague 1907 says:
A person is regarded as a parlementaire who has been authorized by one of the belligerents to enter into communication with the other, and who advances bearing a white flag. He has a right to inviolability, as well as the trumpeter, bugler or drummer, the flag-bearer and interpreter who may accompany him.
Hess wasn't authorised by one of the belligerents, and didn't advance bearing a white flag.

Again, why was Hess trusted to keep his secrets for more than 40 years, and then killed when everyone he had dealt with was long dead? That just doesn't make sense. If Hess knew something, it would have been far more damaging in the 40s and 50s and even 60s. Yet he was relied on not to tell anyone, even at a time when Speer proved it was possible to write a book and smuggle it out of Spandau. What was to stop Hess doing the same, or even telling Speer?

No, killing someone to shut them up 45 years after the event just doesn't happen. Especially when everyone else involved is dead.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by peteratwar » 10 Apr 2008 08:27

As I have said elsewhere never let any real facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by tonyh » 10 Apr 2008 12:45

Hop wrote:
There was quite a bit of talk about the release of Hess during the mid 80's on the grounds of ill health and human rights. Wolf Hess was sure that his father was to be released soon because of his condition and for a time there were newspaper and magazine reports about it, which he had made his father aware of. The imprisonment of Hess had become quite the embarressment to the three Nations holding him. There were a number of human rights orgs that were also putting in pressure for his release. Hess had more hope of release in 1987 than he ever had before.
All that applies equally to the 70s. Hess was convinced he would be released in 1974 when he turned 80.

Not quite. Hess himself didn't want release on humanitarian grounds as he felt that had been wrongly imprisoned, which created difficulty for his son and the campaign to free him. But in 1979 he saw the reality of old age creeping up on him and agreed to appeal for release on the grounds of ill-health. It was denied. But in the mid 80's Hess and his son were convinced that the authorities were going to let him go due to the news surrounding the appeal by Weizsacker and the favorable response by Gorbachev. In fact, when this possibility was put to Hess was put to he was said to have commented to medical orderly Abdallah Melaouhi that "The British will kill me".

One of the new issues in the 80s was Wolf Hess' book Mein Vater Rudolf Hess, published in 1984. He went from demanding the release of his father to according to Goda:

the world should not pity but honour his virtuous father
That didn't go down well with anyone. Bernard Levin, who had campaigned for Hess' release, called the book "shameless and disgusting".

In what context did Wolf Hess mean that the world should "honour his father" As a peace envoy between two waring Nations? Then yes, Hess would be worthy of some honourable mention. Levin may have called the book shameless etc, I don't know, but there was a bit animosity by Levin toward Hess's son anyway. As far as I know Levin was supposed to have said "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree". But he still considered Hess's imprisonment despicable enough to actively campaign for his release.

I haven't read Goda's book, although a number of reviews (even positive) have pointed out his obvious spiteful bias against the prisoners in Spandau, that hardly suggests a balanced account on the matter.

Well, actually it WOULD require both the dexterity to tie the knots on both his neck and reach up and tie the other end of the cord to the window frame
Did you read the quote? The cord was already tied to the window, and was merely looped around the neck.

Regardless, you don't have to "reach up" to tie a cord to a catch 4 feet off the ground.

The window was 1.4m (4.5 ft) from the ground. Hess would still have to TIE the cord securely to the window latch, impossible for a man with 3 year old's childs grip, arthritis and inability to use his arms properly...and how could Hess "loop" the other end around his neck so tightly (as to cause strangulation) when he couldn't even raise his hands above his own head?

The man couldn't even dress himself.

It defies logic that a man in his condition would choose such a method to top himself.


But the most damning evidence against the suicide story is the fact the autopsy showed very clearly that Hess' wounds were completely horizontal (symptomatic of strangulation) and lacked the standard issue V shape that is consistent with hanging or suspension as Dr Spann called it.
Which of course would be the case in a sitting hanging.

No, it wouldn't. There would still be the typical V shape if Hess killed himself by suspension, using his own weight. There wasn't. Natural physics would make the cord draw upwards at the back of the neck.
There is something downright dirty about Hess's sentence,
In an age when death was the standard penalty for murder, Hess got off very, very lightly.

Who exactly did Hess murder? He bears no responsibility for the later excesses of the nazi regime and was a pretty minor figure, if the truth be told. Your contention that he "got off very, very lightly" is ridiculous Hop.


Again, why was Hess trusted to keep his secrets for more than 40 years, and then killed when everyone he had dealt with was long dead? That just doesn't make sense. If Hess knew something, it would have been far more damaging in the 40s and 50s and even 60s. Yet he was relied on not to tell anyone, even at a time when Speer proved it was possible to write a book and smuggle it out of Spandau. What was to stop Hess doing the same, or even telling Speer?

No, killing someone to shut them up 45 years after the event just doesn't happen. Especially when everyone else involved is dead.

But he wasn't "trusted", you keep saying this and it's completely false. The man was locked away for 46 years, his every move was monitored, his conversation restricted. That's not trusting Hop.

Also, who was he going to tell in the 40's, when he spent the entire time as a closely guarded captive of the British or as a "war criminal" at Nuremberg? Maybe, Hess kept silent in the hope that he could avoid the hangman's noose (again, his guilt was relatively minor / negligible).

In addition, Hess didn't get on with Speer, they barely spoke. In fact, when Speer was leaving Spandau, he went to say goodbye to Hess and Hess barely acknowledged him. But he did seem to start saying something and then ended with "Oh..forget it".

And...it doesn't matter who was dead and how long it was between events. If Hess had important secrets about his peace flight to Britain, it could have caused a lot of worry for Britain's version of the historical record. Enough worry to justify the murder of a 93 year old cripple that few people even remembered.

Tony

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by nota » 10 Apr 2008 21:54

was there really a peace plan or just some talk of one,?
what were the german offer details?
time tables for troop withdraws? elections?
were there any real count offers made?

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Re: German initiated peace talks in 1941 - Rudolf Hess

Post by FarKenal » 11 Apr 2008 08:24

Please note that a large amount of my reply's to these in respsone to these qoutes are not my own and from another website, though I do agree with alot whats said, and would have asked the same questions anyway, but just worded differently PS. Nota I've tried to help answer your questions halfway down
Hess was the most senior Nazi on trial not to get the death sentence. The Soviet judge voted for the death penalty for Hess.
In January, 1951, John McCloy, the US High Commissioner for Germany, announced that Alfried Krupp and eight members of his board of directors who had been convicted with him, were to be released. Krupt had been convicted of plundering occupied territories and being responsible for the barbaric treatment of prisoners of war and concentration camp inmates. Documents showed that Krupp initiated the request for slave labour and signed detailed contracts with the SS, giving them responsibility for inflicting punishment on the workers. His property, valued at around 45 million, and his numerous companies were also restored to him.

Others that McCloy decided to free included Friedrich Flick, one of the main financial supporters of Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). During the Second World War Flick became extremely wealthy by using 48,000 slave labourers from SS concentration camps in his various industrial enterprises. It is estimated that 80 per cent of these workers died as a result of the way they were treated during the war. His property was restored to him and like Krupp became one of the richest men in Germany.

The crimes of Alfried Krupp and Friedrich Flick were far worse than those of Hess. Others serving life-imprisonment at Spandau Prison were also released: Erich Raeder (1955), Karl Doenitz (1956), Friedrich Flick (1957) and Albert Speer (1966). All these played an important role in Nazi crimes between 1941-45. However, the Soviet Union and Britain refused to release Rudolf Hess, the man who had risked his life by flying to Britain in May 1941 in an attempt to negotiate a peace settlement. Why was he treated so differently to the other Nazi leaders? Im not saying he wasn't a bad guy, but just that given the circumstances, he also bad as so many other dreadful criminals who got off very lightly.

What evidence is there he was on the verge of release?

Well, the British repeatedly called for Hess to be released. The records of the other 4 powers show that, as do British records. The Soviets repeatedly denied the requests to release Hess. Again the records of the other powers show that.
That is also the reason why Hess was murdered on 17th August, 1987. Why 1987 and not some earlier date? Well, the British had been hiding behind the claim that the Soviets were blocking Hess’s release. However, Mikhail Gorbachev told German journalists in February 1987, that he was going to give permission for the release of Hess (Peter Padfield, Hess: The Führer’s Disciple, page 328). The West German newspaper Bild reported that Hess was going to be released on his 93rd birthday on 26th April 1987. (Bild, 21st April, 1987) Hess knew differently, he told Abadallah Melaouhi, his nurse, that the “English will kill me” before I am released. (BBC Newsnight, 28th February 1989).

The British did indeed block his release (Sir Christopher Mallaby, Deputy Secretary of the Cabinet Office, quoted by Hugh Thomas in the documentary “Rudolf Hess: The Appalling Truth). Gorbachev told Margaret Thatcher that he would expose the British hypocrisy by withdrawing the Soviet guards from Spandau Prison. It was then decided that Hess had to die as he could not be allowed to speak in public about what he knew about the peace negotiations that had taken place in 1941.

On (22 September 2007) the National Archives at Kew released some documents that concerned the imprisonment of Rudolf Hess. Unfortunately, they do not refer to the situation in the 1980s but to discussions about his release in 1974. It shows that it was not only the Soviet Union who wanted to keep Hess in prison. A British memo says: "Hess has shown no remorse and has not renounced his Nazi faith. To release Hess in these circumstances could stimulate a Nazi revival." Nonsense of course, but it helped to justify the British decision not to release him. Interestingly, Richard Nixon was all for him being released.

Can I suggest you read this page: http://fpp.co.uk/online/05/06/Himmler_DTel_020705b.html

The files Martin Allen relied on were found to be forgeries slipped in to the national archives quite recently (they used letterheadings created on a laser printer, so cannot have been created before the 90s). Martin Allen also relied on a document that later proved to be a forgery for his earlier book on the Duke of Windsor.
Thanks for that info, this is exactly the reason why I made this original post in the first place. Which is to learn the most likely truth. I was really confused about your statement below about how most of the secret files to the Hess affair have already been released, to which several sites said that when the seal to file containing the Hess flight was opened, that it was empty…. I didn’t know wether they were misinformed or plain lying. Given how though there are a lot of files still to be released (see my paragraphs after your quote) I was really confused about the entire matter. Now I’m inclined to believe that only someone with the utmost authority could steal/hide the Hess files documents, though to not replace them with a false/somewhat believable story would strike me more as a cover up rather then what happened with the Himmler files, where someone was able to sell a book from the information released.

You do understand that the only files that haven't been released are those from 1978 onwards? The files concerning what actually went on in 1941 were released in the 90s.
In 1959, Heinrich Stahmer, Albrecht Haushofer’s agent in Spain, claimed that meetings between Samuel Hoare, Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess took place in Spain and Portugal between February and April 1941. The Vichy press reported that Hess was in Spain on the weekend of 20/22 of April 1941. The correspondence between British Embassies and the Foreign Office are routinely released to the Public Record Office. However, all documents relating to the weekend of 20/22 April, 1941 at the Madrid Embassy are being held back and will not be released until 2017.

Karl Haushofer was arrested and interrogated by the Allies in October 1945. The British government has never released the documents that include details of these interviews. However, these interviews are in the OSS archive. Karl told his interviewers that Germany was involved in peace negotiations with Britain in 1940-41. In 1941 Albrecht was sent to Switzerland to meet Lord Templewood (Samuel Hoare) the British ambassador to Spain. This peace proposal included a willingness to “relinquish Norway, Denmark and France”. Karl goes onto say: “A larger meeting was to be held in Madrid. When my son returned, he was immediately called to Augsburg by Hess. A few days later Hess flew to England


This is supported by the account of Sergeant Daniel McBride, the soldier who arrived soon after David McLean, of the Home Guard, detained Hess. McLean later was to claim that Hess’ first words were: “My name is Alfred Horn. Please tell the Duke of Hamilton I have arrived.” Shortly afterwards, Daniel McBride and Emyr Morris, reached the scene and took control of the prisoner. Hess’s first words to them were “Are you friends of the Duke of Hamilton? I have an important message for him.” McBride and Morris had a conversation with Hess until the arrival of Lieutenant John Clarke and Lieutenant A. R. Gibson (who was in civilian clothes). Clarke, who had a revolver in his hand, demanded that he should take control of Hess.

It is also possible that Hess said something to McBride that convinced him that the government knew about his arrival. McBride died on 7th March 1978. His papers were passed to his daughter, Daniella Royland. In 1996 these were sold by the Royland family at Bonham’s, the London auctioneers. These were purchased by the authors of Double Standards. His papers included a letter from W. B. Howieson, McBride’s superior officer in May 1941. Dated 8th May 1974, Howieson tells McBride to “drop this Hess business”. He adds that “we know what really happened” but if this information became public knowledge it would “stir up a hornets’ nest.” Howieson ends his letter by reminding McBride that he was “still subject to the Official Secrets Act”.

Not only is there a lack of evidence to support the theories, there's a lack of logic, too. Hess was free to talk to his lawyers at his trial (where he discussed the secret parts of the Nazi-Soviet pact). He was free to talk to his family and fellow inmates at Spandau. Speer even managed to smuggle his memoirs out of Spandau.

Yet the claim is Speer knew something so terrible it was worth killing him for in 1987, but hadn't been worth killing him for in 1945 - 1986. That doesn't make sense.

It seems to me that ignoring both facts and logic is a classic pattern of conspiracy theories.
This is partly the same response as given above
Possibly the reason why Hess may of been murdered on 17th August, 1987 and not some earlier date? Back then they would of thought with him safely locked up in jail, for what they at the time believed would be the rest of his life. I imagine that they made serious threats against his family in return for his selective memory during the Nuremberg trials (or even possibly a light sentence), Hess would of known they had both the ability and serious enough motive.
After then the British had been hiding behind the claim that the Soviets were blocking Hess’s release.

Whilst I always try to look at both sides of the story I'm finding it hard to also simply dismiss facts like Abdallah Melaouhi (Hess's Medical Orderly) who even took his testimony and suspicions that Hess was murdered to Scotland Yard in London. In addition is the fact that the Garden shed, being the scene of where his body was found, was burnt down within 48 hours of his death.

As far as I am aware there is no method of causing amnesia to this day. I could perhaps understand drugs that would cause temporary amnesia whilst they were in the blood stream, but Hess was supervised by US doctors for about a year before the end of the trial.
Regardless, Hess told Speer that his "amnesia" during the trial was an act. His US doctors believed that at the time, too.

Most experts considered that in accordance with the Geneva and Hague Conventions, Hess was not in a fit state to stand trial. Churchill told Stalin that Hess was mentally ill but this was to be kept secret otherwise – under the terms of the Geneva Convention – he would have to be repatriated.

Hess’s defence counsel requested that he should be examined by a psychiatrist from neutral Switzerland. The request was denied and instead he was examined by psychiatrists from all four victorious countries. He was eventually examined by eight doctors – three British, three Soviets, one American and one French doctor. Seven of the eight said he was fit to stand trial. The eighth, Lord Moran, who was Churchill’s personal doctor, claimed he was too ill to stand trial and should be handed back to the British.


And to respond to Nato's questions, this is what i currently believe
was there really a peace plan or just some talk of one,?
For anyone who doesn’t know, Rudolph Hess was Hitler’s deputy Furher, basically the 3rd highest ranking Nazi and his role was more as a political figure.
On 10th September 1940, Karl Haushofer sent a letter to his son Albrecht (Hess’s assistant). The letter discussed secret peace talks going on with Britain. Karl talked about “middlemen” such as Ian Hamilton (head of the British Legion), the Duke of Hamilton and Violet Roberts, the widow of Walter Roberts. The Roberts were very close to Stewart Menzies (Head of MI6 Intelligence), (Walter and Stewart had gone to school together). Violet Roberts was living in Lisbon in 1940. Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland were the four main places where these secret negotiations were taking place. Karl and Albrecht Haushofer were close friends of both Rudolf Hess and the Duke of Hamilton.
In 1959, Heinrich Stahmer, who worked with Haushofer, claimed that meetings between Samuel Hoare, Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess took place in Spain and Portugal between February and April 1941. and as mentioned in this post above, documents possibly confirming this were censored and due to be made public until 2017.

With Dunkirk there is evidence that suggests this was part of a deal being agreed between Germany and Britain. After the war, General Gunther Blumentritt, the Army Chief of Staff, told military historian Basil Liddell Hart that Hitler had decided that Germany would make peace with Britain. Another German general told Liddell Hart that Hitler aimed to make peace with Britain “on a basis that was compatible with her honour to accept”. (The Other Side of the Hill, pages 139-41)
According to Ilse Hess, her husband was told by Hitler that the massacring of the British army at Dunkirk would humiliate the British government and would make peace negotiations harder because of the bitterness and resentment it would cause.
Joseph Goebbels recorded in his diary in June 1940 that Hitler told him that peace talks with Britain were taking place in Sweden. The intermediary was Marcus Wallenberg, a Swedish banker. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhess.htm

what were the german offer details?
Largely drawn from the discussions from this website and further links, it would appear that Hitler proposed to withdraw all Troops from the following countries, only leaving behind Military Police

France, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, Yugoslavia & Greece
Hitler wanted to annex Luxemburg, parts of Czechoslovakia, Poland (absorb them to be German territories)
Germany would pay reparation monies to the western countries

I have also read that one condition of the deal may have been that Churchill would have to be stood down as Prime Minister. I’ll expand on this at the end.

time tables for troop withdraws? elections?
Germany would reinstate new governments for free elections in each of the mentioned countries (ones friendly to Germany, naturally and most likely after anti-fascists had been removed)

No idea about timetables, though imagine it would have been done quickly as possible to use those troops on the Eastern Front.

were there any real count offers made?
All historical files relating to this seem to of conveniently disappeared or are still classified and not to be released until 2017 (who knows if the files in those folders aren’t going to mysteriously go missing too though).

What many believe though, is that with the commencement of Barbossa just weeks away, is that rather than send an emissary to these peace talks that had apparently been going on for a while. That Hess went personally to accept/reject on the spot, any details or counter offers in the proposals.


So to put it out there again I and possibly motives I'll add the following - I've tried to cull it back as much as possible

It’s a puzzle isn’t it? On 26 May 1940, the war cabinet met under Churchill and Neville Chamberlain quoted Churchill in his diary entry as telling the cabinet, ‘if we could get out of this jam by giving up Malta and Gibraltar and some African colonies he would jump at it.’ Given Britain’s position this seems a reasonable conclusion on Churchill’s part and one might reasonably expect him and his colleagues to do everything in their power to further peace negotiations with Germany, whatever the circumstances, even if only as a distraction

Minutes of the Cabinet meetings in May 1940 reveal Churchill’s strategy. As Clive Ponting argues: “Churchill argued in favour, not of continuing the war until victory, but of trying to get through the next two or three months before making a decision on whether or not to ask for peace.” (Clive Ponting, 1940: Myth and Reality, 1990, page 108)

Why then did these negotiations fail? We know from German sources that Hitler was willing to withdraw from all his European gains in exchange for “German friendly governments”. All Hitler wanted from Churchill was to be given a free-hand against the Soviet Union. Churchill also wanted Soviet communism destroyed. The only problem for Churchill concerned his image. He had portrayed himself as the warrior who was unwilling to negotiate and end to the conflict. Despite saving the lives of possibly millions of British people, he might also be seen as an appeaser who had cynically engineered the removal of Chamberlain in order to gain power. Churchill cared more about his political reputation, something he had only just got back, than he did about the fate of the British people (his plane was always kept ready to take him to Canada if Germany invaded the country). His convenient changes in political views to suddenly suit which ever government party would take him, that potentially provided him with a step up in gaining greater power was legendary. In both prewar and post war developments.


After even further research Im inclined to believe that when Hess arrived in May 1941 that Churchill was partially informed/in semi control of these meetings, a number of possible scenarios arose. In any case Im sure that Hess never got to negotiate with the Royal family as per his real intentions
(This is supported by the account of Sergeant Daniel McBride, the soldier who arrived soon after David McLean, of the Home Guard, detained Hess. McLean later was to claim that Hess’ first words were: “My name is Alfred Horn. Please tell the Duke of Hamilton I have arrived.” Shortly afterwards, Daniel McBride and Emyr Morris, reached the scene and took control of the prisoner. Hess’s first words to them were “Are you friends of the Duke of Hamilton? I have an important message for him.”)

Why is this important? Its because both the duke of Kent and Duke of Hamilton were at the latters house (10 miles from where Hess landed), yet when on the next day they had a car accident when they ran into a coal lorry along his home road. In top secret documents declassified in 1967 they reveal that when MI5 heard this they immediately sent an agent to the area to quash the news that the two had been in the area of where Hess had landed. Though if Churchill was supposedly in control of the meetings for which some experts have given him the credit of luring Hess to Scotland. Why the need to hush up the Royals involvement?


1. When Hess first arrived, Churchill had his own officers negiotiate with him rather than the royals. Here it was found that Hitler was willing to carry out the generous peace conditions on the provision that Churchill step down. To which he completely refuted any possible deal and started the cover up, so that

A) the people didn’t think that Churchill simply didn’t want to lose his job

B) Fear of being ousted as he had been seen as a hard man not willing negotiate and to see victory to the end, and had just replaced Chamberlain because he had been trying to constantly reach an appeasement policy with Germany.

2. They couldn’t come to an agreement over Poland for which Churchill had made strong guarantees declaring their independence postwar, and they didn’t want the British people to know that a peace for them was an option at the expense of the Poles, for whom they wouldn’t care about if there was a way out of this losing war.

3. They did agree to cede Poland to Germany though General Sikorski (head of the Polish government in exile) found out through his intelligence contacts and tried to prevent and deals (though I don’t know what he could of done about this).

4. The reason why Britain was in such a crisis, was because they didn’t have any allies to help them carry the fight. It may been that that the peace conditions were more than acceptable though Churchill may of found out through the ever long list of German traitors in high military positions (notably Wilhelm Canaris, Hans Oster) that Hitler was just weeks from declaring war on the Russians, giving Britain a strong ally and the desperately sort after second front that they needed. And hence that victory was still possible.

5. Churchill had no idea of the plans to negotiate, whether or not it involved him being ousted of power doesn’t matter much either way, though it would mean that all of the conspirators are traitors and could be tried for treason (especially both of the Dukes).

It was not until 27th January 1942 that Winston Churchill made a statement in the House of Commons about the arrival of Hess. Churchill claimed it was part of a plot to oust him from power and “for a government to be set up with which Hitler could negotiate a magnanimous peace”. If that was the case, were the Duke of Hamilton and the Duke of Kent part of this plot?

In September, 1943, Anthony Eden, the foreign secretary, admitted in the House of Commons that Hess had indeed arrived in Scotland to negotiate a peace settlement. However, Eden claimed that the British government had been unaware of these negotiations. In fact, he added, Hess had refused to negotiate with Churchill. Eden failed to say who Hess was negotiating with. Nor did he explain why Hess (Hitler) was willing to negotiate with someone other than the British government. The authors of Double Standards accept that Eden is telling the truth and that Hess was negotiating with Hamilton and the royal family, via the Duke of Kent. As we have seen, Hamilton had a meeting with Churchill and Menzies two days after Hess arrived in Scotland. We also know that MI6 was monitoring these negotiations.

If Hamilton was truly a traitor, surely Churchill would have punished him. Instead, along with the Duke of Kent, who were both in the RAF, were promoted by Churchill. In July 1941 Hamilton became a Group Captain and Kent became an Air Commodore.

The Duke of Hamilton's diary records several meetings with the Duke of Kent during the early months of 1941. Elizabeth Byrd worked as a secretary for Hamilton's brother Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton. She claims he told her that the Duke of Hamilton took the "flak for the whole Hess affair in order to protect others even higher up the social scale". Byrd added that "he (Lord Malcolm) had strongly hinted that the cover-up was necessary to protect the reputations of members of the Royal Family".

6. It was all an elaborate ploy by Churchill who had put British officials that were known Nazi appeasers, in strategic positions so that they could continue to carry out the peace negotiations purely for the sake of enticing Hitler to attack Russia.
The reason that Winston Churchill was unable to take the credit for the highly successful strategy of persuading Hitler to invade the Soviet Union after the war was that he was forced to order the deaths of certain people involved in this story. Not to mention the international damage in would cause to Britain’s political image, of trying to openly and deceptively trying to cause a war between two nations because it suited them at the time.

Churchill knew that people like the Duke of Hamilton and other members of the far right were not able to reveal their role in these events. However, there were people who had a great deal of independence who would have posed a considerable threat to Churchill’s reputation after the war.

Both General Władysław Sikorski and the Duke of Kent (the Kings brother).

I have pages of information that may paint an unpleasant picture that Churchill had something to do with the deaths of both men for political interests, though the aim of this topic is to ask why Churchill and/or the British government would of not accepted a generous peace proposition when offered to them in the 1940 & 1941 and continue the war at the cost of millions of lives.
Last edited by FarKenal on 14 Apr 2008 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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