German Losses (KIA)

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thom
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 23 May 2009 12:08

Until the end of 1940. But you can calculate the Wehrmacht total until August 1940 from his figures - 90,000.

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 23 May 2009 12:14

You would need some really good arguments to convince me that he was in the Volkssturm.
I was thinking hard but couldn't find one :) So it looks like VB data has its own issues then...

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 May 2009 12:15

While Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik gives 91,101 dead soldiers of Wehrmacht until 31.08.1940 (which should be considered as certain and minimal possible real casualties - because this data might be not fully complete).

Moreover - Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik gives much lower casualties of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe than Overmans, and - simultaneously - much bigger percentage of Heer casualties.

It seems that Overmans considerably underestimated casualties of Heer during the first year of war and essentially overestimated casualties of Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine during the same period.

At the same time he slightly underestimated total Wehrmacht casualties during this period.

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 23 May 2009 12:28

4. Westfeldzug 1940:

Heer – 41,257
Luftwaffe – 3,756
Kriegsmarine – 289
I do not have my sources with me this weekend, but IIRC, Heer killed and missing in the French campaign were 46,000 + rather than 41,000 +.

This would also explain the 5,000 "vanished".

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 24 May 2009 00:49

Westfeldzug casualties are from Fritz Hahn, "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945", p. 203:

Heer:

27,650 Tote
13,607 Vermisste (Tote + Vermisste = 41,257)
115,299 Verwundete

Luftwaffe:

1,722 Tote
2,034 Vermisste
2,897 Verwundete

Kriegsmarine:

121 Tote
168 Vermisste
30 Verwundete

Total: 29,493 Tote; 15,809 Vermisste (Tote + Vermisste 45,302); 118,226 Verwundete

Similar numbers (but without distinction between Heer / Luftwaffe / Kriegsmarine) are also given by "Die Tatsachen in der Ubersicht, Zwei" (Eng. "Facts in Review, 2") (1940, No. 30), July, 1940:

Fall Gelb (10.05.1940 - 05.06.1940):

10,252 Tote
8,463 Vermisste
42,523 Verwundete

Fall Rot (05.06.1940 - 25.06.1940):

16,822 Tote
9,921 Vermisste
68,511 Verwundete

Total: 27,074 Tote; 18,384 Vermisste (Tote + Vermisste 45,458); 111,034 Verwundete
Heer killed and missing in the French campaign were 46,000
Overmans provides 46,059, quoting a report from 30.08.1944 (BA-MA, RH 7/v.653).

The same report can be found in NARA T77, R826, F2114~0.

But on the other hand - quoting the same report of WVW/WED - he provides lower number for Norway than Hahn.

Because Hahn provides the following numbers for Norwegenfeldzug (quoted by me on the previous page):

Heer – 2,257 (including 1166 Tote and 1091 Vermisste)
Luftwaffe – 789
Kriegsmarine - 849

And Overmans provides the following fatal combat casualties of Heer in Norwegenfeldzug:

1,249

Which is 1,008 lower than Hahn's figure. While Overmans' figure for Westfeldzug is 4,802 higher than Hahn's one.

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by RichTO90 » 24 May 2009 01:17

Domen121 wrote:Westfeldzug casualties are from Fritz Hahn, "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945", p. 203:

Heer:

27,650 Tote
13,607 Vermisste
115,299 Verwundete

Luftwaffe:

1,722 Tote
2,034 Vermisste
2,897 Verwundete

Kriegsmarine:

121 Tote
168 Vermisste
30 Verwundete

Total: 29,493 Tote; 15,809 Vermisste (Tote + Vermisste 45,302); 118,226 Verwundete

Similar numbers (but without distinction between Heer / Luftwaffe / Kriegsmarine) are also given by "Die Tatsachen in der Ubersicht, Zwei" (Eng. "Facts in Review, 2") (1940, No. 30), July, 1940:

Fall Gelb (10.05.1940 - 05.06.1940):

10,252 Tote
8,463 Vermisste
42,523 Verwundete

Fall Rot (05.06.1940 - 25.06.1940):

16,822 Tote
9,921 Vermisste
68,511 Verwundete

Total: 27,074 Tote; 18,384 Vermisste (Tote + Vermisste 45,458); 111,034 Verwundete
Heer killed and missing in the French campaign were 46,000
Overmans provides 46,059, quoting a report from 30.08.1944 (BA-MA, RH 7/v.653).

The same report can be found in NARA T77, R826, F2114~0.

But on the other hand - quoting the same report - he provides lower number for Norwegenfeldzug than Hahn.

Because Hahn provides the following numbers for Norwegenfeldzug (quoted by me on the previous page):

Heer – 2,257 (including 1166 Tote and 1091 Vermisste)
Luftwaffe – 789
Kriegsmarine - 849

And Overmans provides the following casualties of Heer in Norwegenfeldzug:

1,249

Which is 1,008 lower than Hahn's figure. While Overmans' figure for Westfeldzug is 4,802 higher than Hahn's one.
There is considerable variance in the German figures; mostly due to different reporting channels and the failure to quickly resolve the cases of missing personnel. On 1 October 1941 a statistical study group had been set up within the Office of Armed Forces Losses (Abteilung Wehrmachtverlustwesen) to resolve problems with the “Central Statistics of Manpower Losses in the War” (Zentralstatistik der Menschenverluste im Kriege). On 30 August 1944 the group issued a report on the “Development and State of the Work” (Entwicklung und Stand der Arbeit) (T77, R780, F2114~). The report gave the following examples of problems in the reporting of deaths (Toten) through enemy action within the existing systems of the Heer:

Polish Campaign: the Sanitats Inspektur (Medical Inspectors) reported 10,244 dead through enemy action, while the KTB of the various regiments reported a total of 14,188. The work of a committee to resolve the status of missing had as of the date of the report determined the dead to be 15,450.

French Campaign: the monthly summary by the Wehrmacht Fuhrungsstab (Armed Forces Command Staff) reported 26,455 dead, the Sanitats Inspektur reported 30,267 dead and the MIA committee reported 46,059 dead.

Norway Campaign: the Sanitats Inspektur reported 274 dead, the IVb (Medical Officer) of Gruppe XXI reported 886 dead and the MIA committee reported 1,249 dead.

Somewhat later another report gave losses in the Polish, Norwegian, French, and Balkan Campaigns (Organizationsabteilung d. Gen,Stb. d. OKH. 6 Feb 45, NARA T78, R414, F3226-3227) as:

Poland: 8,082 KIA, 27,278 WIA, 5,029 MIA
Norway: 1,166 KIA, 1,548 WIA, 1,091 MIA
France: 27,650 KIA, 115,299 WIA, 13,607 MIA
Balkans: 1,593 KIA, 4,845 WIA, 644 MIA

This refers only to losses within the Feldheer and probably includes Waffen-SS losses as well. Note that it still distinguishes the MIA that the MIA committee apparently had judged dead (although Norway remains a puzzling case) and it does not include losses in Luftwaffe ground or airborne formations or losses in the Kriegsmarine. For instance the losses quoted for the Balkans must certainly exclude 7. Flieger Division losses on Crete, which were probably 1,032 KIA, 1,632 WIA and 1,759 MIA.

This also illustrates some of the problem with Overmann; he appears to pick and chose the figures that most suits him, but without...at least as best I can recall...providing an adequate "trail" for where the figures came from or why he used them. Note his figure of 1,249 is simply the number judged dead by the MIA committee in August 1944 and are not the total of KIA plus MIA given by Hahn!

Hope that helps explain when and where the root of some of these figures were.

Cheers!

Rich

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 24 May 2009 08:45

Which is 1,008 lower than Hahn's figure. While Overmans' figure for Westfeldzug is 4,802 higher than Hahn's one.
It is not Overmans' figure, he simply quotes from the reports. And in some cases, as mentioned, without paying due attention to the nature of the reported figures.

I have myself copies of reports where figures around 46,000 are mentioned.

And it is well known Hahn in most cases reports the initial KIA/MIA figures.

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 24 May 2009 19:55

Hi RichTO90, hello Michate,
RichTO90 wrote:Polish Campaign: the Sanitats Inspektur (Medical Inspectors) reported 10,244 dead through enemy action, while the KTB of the various regiments reported a total of 14,188. The work of a committee to resolve the status of missing had as of the date of the report determined the dead to be 15,450.

French Campaign: the monthly summary by the Wehrmacht Fuhrungsstab (Armed Forces Command Staff) reported 26,455 dead, the Sanitats Inspektur reported 30,267 dead and the MIA committee reported 46,059 dead.

Norway Campaign: the Sanitats Inspektur reported 274 dead, the IVb (Medical Officer) of Gruppe XXI reported 886 dead and the MIA committee reported 1,249 dead.
These are figures quoted by Overmans in "Tab. 1: Tote des Heeres durch Feindeinwirkung bis 1941" - they come from the report of WVW/WED written on 30.08.1944. These figures only refer to casualties of Heer, not Wehrmacht.

While the report of Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik from 30.11.1944 gives higher numbers for casualties of Heer during the Polish Campaign of 1939: 16,843 KIA and 320 MIA Heer soldiers = 17,163 KIA and MIA.

And for the whole period 01.09.1939 - 31.08.1944 it gives 65,754 KIA and MIA Heer soldiers.

So we can say that combat casualties of Heer during separated campaigns were at least:

Poland 1939 - 17,163 KIA / MIA
West 1940 - 46,059 KIA / MIA
Norway and Denmark 1940 - at least 1,249 KIA / MIA judged dead

= at least 64,471

And 65,754 minus 64,471 = 1,283

So not as many as 5,000, but still up to around 1,283 is "missing" somewhere / "vanished" somewhere.

But there were also casualties during the Phoney War. Until the end of 1939 they were (according to Hahn):

585 Tote
137 Vermisste
1347 Verwundete

This includes casualties of Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine + Heer. Do you know how many of them were Heer casualties?

Anyway - still some - but rather small - amount of casualties will be "missing", even after counting casualties of Heer during the Phoney War. Maybe this additional number should be divided between all campaigns listed above? Or maybe all of these "additional" ones were killed in Norway?

I know that apart from casualties in ground combats, Heer also suffered casualties while enroute to Norway at sea.

How many casualties were suffered by Heer at sea and how many in ground combats during Norwegenfeldzug? Were those soldiers of Heer who lost their lives at sea counted as combat casualties or maybe some of them were counted as casualties due to accidents, for example?
Michate wrote:It is not Overmans' figure, he simply quotes from the reports. And in some cases, as mentioned, without paying due attention to the nature of the reported figures.
This is what I wrote.

While writing: "Overmans' figure" I just meant: "figure quoted by Overmans".

And he quotes numbers from the same report for both Poland, France and Norway (report of WVW/WED from 30.08.1944). And his number for Norway is lower than Hahn's number for Norway, while his numbers for France and Poland are higher than Hahn's numbers for France and Poland.

But I guess that RichTO90 has already explained this phenomenon.
Michate wrote:And it is well known Hahn in most cases reports the initial KIA/MIA figures.
Yes, you are right. So they shouldn't be considered as complete casualties.

Certainly number 46,059 for Heer in Westfeldzug is more correct than number provided by Hahn.
RichTO90 wrote:Somewhat later another report gave losses in the Polish, Norwegian, French, and Balkan Campaigns (Organizationsabteilung d. Gen,Stb. d. OKH. 6 Feb 45, NARA T78, R414, F3226-3227) as:
But this report is only later by date of creation, certainly not by specific character of figures quoted in it.

Figures quoted in it are the same initial figures which were published soon after the end of these campaigns.

Most of these figures were published and publicly available - for example figures for Westfeldzug quoted in this report were published as early as in July of 1940 in "Die Tatsachen in der Ubersicht, Zwei", 1940, No 30.

Thus, these figures may also contain some propaganda and forgery - as they were openly available for civilians.

Btw - the same figures are quoted by Fritz Hahn in his book (see above what was written about figures from Hahn).

Best regards,
Peter

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 25 May 2009 06:59

But there were also casualties during the Phoney War. Until the end of 1939 they were (according to Hahn):

585 Tote
137 Vermisste
1347 Verwundete

This includes casualties of Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine + Heer. Do you know how many of them were Heer casualties?
More complete figures for losses on the Western front theatre in the period 1 September 1939 to 9 May 1940 are:

Heer:
dead: 1139
wounded: 2550
missing: 293
sum: 3982

Kriegsmarine:
dead: 1612
wounded: 431
missing: 2374, including PoW: 360, Interned: 1097 (probably the Crew of Admiral Graf Spee), probably lost in the water: 917)
sum: 4417

Luftwaffe:
dead: 847
wounded: 353
missing: 363
sum: 1563

source is DRZW, Vol. 2, p. 307, referencing a WFSt report of 9 September 1940.

From the nature of the figures provided in the same report for the period after 10 May 1940, it seems clear dead refers to KIA.

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 25 May 2009 09:37

Michate wrote:More complete figures for losses on the Western front theatre in the period 1 September 1939 to 9 May 1940 are:

[...]

it seems clear dead refers to KIA.
Or maybe also dead due to accidents?

Btw - does this data also include casualties during the Fall Weserubung since 09.04.1940 until 09.05.1940?
Michate wrote:Kriegsmarine:
dead: 1612
wounded: 431
missing: 2374, including PoW: 360, Interned: 1097 (probably the Crew of Admiral Graf Spee), probably lost in the water: 917)
sum: 4417
Domen121 wrote:But there were also casualties during the Phoney War. Until the end of 1939 they were (according to Hahn):

585 Tote
137 Vermisste
1347 Verwundete

This includes casualties of Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine + Heer. Do you know how many of them were Heer casualties?
And I suppose that Hahn's data for 1939 (585 Tote / 137 Vermisste) includes zero (0) or at least very small numbers of Kriegsmarine casualties.

Because I guess that Kriegsmarine was not suffering casualties during the "Phoney War" or "West 1939" but during the battle of Atlantic / North Sea, which was probably counted separately. What do you think about that?

Hahn does not write either these numbers include casualties of Kriegsmarine in Atlantic / North Sea or not.

He only writes (on page 197):

"Personelle Ausfalle sind naturlich auch im Westen entstanden, einschliesslich der Verluste ohne Feindeinwirkung waren es bis zum 31. Dezember 1939" - and he provides figures given above.

If it comes to Heer and Luftwaffe casualties:
Michate wrote:missing: 293
Michate wrote:missing: 363
Do you know if and how many of them were PoWs?

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Aug 2009 00:11

Jan-Hendrik wrote:That, as the german Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge und Kriegsgeschädigte published its first statistics the war was already ten years over... those who were still Missing at this point were in Majority killed, died or deportet without any further trace, will say: not alive anymore.

Jan-Hendrik
Bergveen wrote:Jan-Hendrik,

If they were murdered, killed a.s.o. why was that? On which scale do we talk here? Who were the hangman? The Soviet "libaration" Army? The Polish? The Czechs? The Yugoslavs?? Was the reason just vengeance, hate?? Or was there more?
Bergveen wrote:this is all done to avoid the nasty question: what really happened???
Jan-Hendrik wrote:In short words? Yes
Jan, Bergveen - do you realize that people simply die?

Do you realize that each year around 1 to 1,5 percent of European population dies from natural causes or in car accidents, etc. For example in year 2005 at least 368,285 Poles died (1009 per day) - so almost 1 percent of all Poles.

But after the end of WW2 more people were dying each year due to diseases, hunger, lack of supplies - etc. - due to things which always happen after the end of all wars, when living conditions are much worse than usually.

So we have to assume that at least 15% of all Germans who were alive in 1945 died due to natural causes during the first 10 years after the end of the war. Which makes the data of Bundesministerium - ekhm - simply useless...

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Aug 2009 05:13

So we know now: every Bundesministerium has to ask our Domi first if they want to publish any statistics, as they simply do not know how to do it...

Thanks for this humoristical intermission :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2009 09:21

Hoping not to complicate things 8-) Gesamtausfälle der Wehrmacht (Nach unterlagen der WVN /OKW 1944 ) (CL +NCL ?) 1939 -1940 :Tote :Heer:76848 KM 3425 Lw 8O8O Total:88353 Vermißte /Kriegsgefangene Heer:2038 KM: 1393 Lw:1989 Total:5420 aus W entlassen Heer:16644 KM:151 Lw:1549 Total:18344 Bisher nicht ergriffene Fahnenflüchtige Heer:4 insgesamt :Heer:95534 KM:4969 Lw:11618

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 07 Aug 2009 00:09

So we know now: every Bundesministerium has to ask our Domi first if they want to publish any statistics, as they simply do not know how to do it
They certainly know how to do it, but you don't know how to read and interpret their statistics. :wink:

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 07 Aug 2009 05:18

Fine, but you know how to?! :D

Interesting...

Jan-Hendrik

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