German Losses (KIA)

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Bergveen
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Re: German civilian losses: who killed who?

Post by Bergveen » 21 Jun 2008 11:43

German civilians were ordered to leave the communities they lived in for many hundred of years in Poland: Danzig, Stettin, Pommern (Pommerania), Ost Preussen (South East Prussia), Silezien (Silesia) and east Brandenburg and in Tjechoslovakia: Böhmen (Bohemia) & Mähren (Moravia).

Civilians fled for the Red Army fearing which behaved like "savages" and brutal murderers. Nemmersdorf in East Prussia was an example how the Soviets behaved once they entered German soil.
So millions fled and virtually hundreds-of thousands died of drowning, exhausion, malnutrition and also because of the fighting which frequently intermitted the flight. The escape harbours like Kolberg, Gotenhafen, Pillau, Frishe Nehrung were terrible places.

Fighting in and around big German cities like Königsberg and Breslau was very intense. Both cities were surrounded, shelled intensely for months, city fight was also intense and high casualties among the Soviet troops led to acts of vengeance, also against civilians. At least a few hundred thousand died in the many embattled cities, towns and villages.

During occupation hundred of thousands were put in camps, because they were Nazi's. Unknown how many perished here.

Expulsion after mai 1945.
Civilians were "murdered" in instances of intense hate, vengeance or because the new owners feared to loose the property IF Germans would came back. Say that these incursions form up a % of the death.

Many hundreds of thousands choose to stay and subdued to their new rulers. So if 2,1 million were statistically missing a large group has to be deducted because they travelled out of Germany or choose to stay.

I think that 1 million civilian deaths is an acceptable number if looking at all what happened and also based on evidence of casualties at certain places. For Berlin, Breslau and Königsberg alone the civlian population lost was at least 50.000. In Berlin another 29.000 were victims of the air raids. But the actual number may be higher than 1.000.000.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jun 2008 12:26

During occupation hundred of thousands were put in camps, because they were Nazi's. Unknown how many perished here.
No Sir. Because they were german 8O
German civilians were ordered to leave the communities they lived in for many hundred of years in Poland

Sorry, iI am unable to comprehend this....
Officially 2.1 million civilians are still missing. Unknown is the number of persons which accepted fate and changed their German names to survive.
Not directly, but later after the war it was possible to engage postal contacts between relatives, most of those Missing simply vanished.

Jan-Hendrik

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Jun 2008 12:47

Hi Bergveen,

I have the German casualty figures for the Balkans somewhere. Amongst other places, the Imperial War Museum in London has a monthly set in its archives.

From memory, 103,000 is about right, but I will check, so don't quote me yet. I believe the majority were suffered in the last nine months of the war.

One has to remember that the Balkans were a conventional front from September 1944 to May 1945 and that the Red Army and Bulgarian Army were both involved in the fighting, as well as the Yugoslavs Partisans, who took up a conventional role using armour and artillery supplied by the Red Army and British. Some German divisions, such as 1st Mountain Division near Belgrade barely escaped encirclement and annihilation. Others, such as 7th SS and a Luftwaffe Field Division (11th?) suffered significant casualties against the Bulgarians.

Cheers,

Sid.

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses (KIA): Krivosheev numbers

Post by Bergveen » 21 Jun 2008 13:52

Krivosheev writes the next losses under AXIS troops at the Eastern Front:

Germans (WH/LW/KM/SS/Todt) lost - 4.270.700 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Romanians lost 300.000 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Hungarians lost 350.055 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Italians lost 71.593 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Finns lost 82.403 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Slovaks lost 1.865 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
Demographical losses of armies of Romania,Hungary,Italy,Finnland,Slovakia - 806.000 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat cas, died as POW on EF.
(G.Krivosheev "Russia and USSR in wars of XX century.Losses of Armed Forces.Statistical Research.").

In my computations (based on Rüdiger Overmans) the

Germans (WH/LW/KM/SS/Todt) lost: 2,200.000 KIA and 1,370.000 MIA & died in Soviet custody = 3,570.000 men.
This number is based on 900.000 battlefront & 200.000 POW deaths before 22 june 1944 and 1.300.000 battlefront & 1.170.000 POW death after 22 june 1944. To this number can be added 75% of the 0,5 million other casulaties of war
(a number of heavy wounded which died of their wounds and all suicide cases). This number can however never be more than 375.000. Grand total of German military death because of the EF is then: 3.945.000

In military terms the Axis powers lost roughly 2,750.000 million soldiers KIA (& died of wounds) and 2.000.000 died as Soviet POW's. The Soviets themselves lost between 8,5 and 10 million soldiers (all arms, but not the partizans) KIA (& died of wounds) and 2.800.000 died as POW in German custody. To this must be counted the Poles, Finns, Czechs, Slovaks, Rumanians and Bulgarians which fought on the Soviet side and the Soviet soldiers liberarated but taken POW by Stalin and died in his camps.

The ration in battle losses between Axis and Soviets is therefore 1 : 4 for 1941-1945.

So I think Krivosheev is pretty near the total of Rüdiger Overmans!!!!

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Bergveen » 21 Jun 2008 14:04

To: Jan Hendrik.

"Poland" must be: Eastern German privinces which are nowadays part of Poland.

What must I understand with "just vanished"??? Can you give me your view on what happened after that the Soviet Army entered German soil? Do you have move specific statistics on German civilian casualties?


To Sid.

According losses of most other authors I read: Balkans (Yugoslavia, Albania & Greece): 34.000 KIA until december 1944.
I simply can not account 69.000 other KIA's (RO) because the fighting north of Serbia was not so intense, or ???

For Italy I came upon numbers of 59.000 KIA until december 1944.
I simply can not account 91.000 other KIA's (RO) because the fighting for the Apeninian passes and Po was not so intense, or ???

I can imagine that therafter the fighting in the Balkans intensified, but to above numbers the KIA which were hidden in MIA numbers have to be added.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jun 2008 14:44

What must I understand with "just vanished"??? Can you give me your view on what happened after that the Soviet Army entered German soil? Do you have move specific statistics on German civilian casualties?
That, as the german Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge und Kriegsgeschädigte published its first statistics the war was already ten years over...those who were still Missing at this point were in Majority killed, died or deportet without any further trace, will say: not alive anymore.

Jan-Hendrik

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Bergveen » 21 Jun 2008 16:26

Jan-Hendrik,

If they were murdered, killed a.s.o. why was that? On which scale do we talk here? Who were the hangman? The Soviet "libaration" Army? The Polish? The Czechs? The Yugoslavs?? Was the reason just vengeance, hate?? Or was there more?

I am aware that the government of Poland vehemently protests against anything the Germans want to as a memorial for the disappeared 1-2 million. Now if there were 2 million French, British or US civilians were killed, there would be a HUGE memorial and an everlasting rememberance every year. In Germany there is nothing of such an memorial. The 1-2 million just keep on to be "vanished" (evaporized). And all executioners are very happy with this fact. It is a little bit awkward, that until today there is no one interested to give some insight in what happened to many Germans.

Coming back to Overmans and his statement that the death toll from expulsion hardly was 500.000 and the death toll of civilians by hand of the Soviet Army is a moderate "300.000" and also the majority of the vanished just went over to other countries or took other names, this is all done to avoid the nasty question: what really happened???

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jun 2008 17:01

this is all done to avoid the nasty question: what really happened???
In short words? Yes
If they were murdered, killed a.s.o. why was that? On which scale do we talk here? Who were the hangman? The Soviet "libaration" Army? The Polish? The Czechs? The Yugoslavs?? Was the reason just vengeance, hate?? Or was there more?
Complex case, complex explanations...hate, Agitprop, social jealousy...hiding the own "collaboration", mistreatment...

Jan-Hendrik

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henryk
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by henryk » 22 Jun 2008 18:49

Bergveen said:
I am aware that the government of Poland vehemently protests against anything the Germans want to as a memorial for the disappeared 1-2 million.
And many others object:
http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=44629
Planned Berlin Memorial for WWII German Expellees Triggers Eastern European Unease
Geir Moulson July 17, 2003
BERLIN (AP) - More than a half-century after millions of Germans fled or were expelled from their homes in Eastern Europe in the wake of the Nazis' defeat, a German foundation is pushing for a memorial to a group increasingly seen as Adolf Hitler's victims.
But commemorating Hitler's German victims is an explosive proposal, unsettling Germany's eastern neighbors, countries now lined up to join the European Union.
A private organization, the Federation for Expellees, launched a drive three years ago to create a memorial for the 12.5 million Germans who lost their ancestral homes in present-day Poland, Czech Republic and other eastern lands.
This week, more than 70 prominent intellectuals and politicians from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Israel and Germany voiced their concerns about the nascent plan.
In an open letter, the signers said they feared the suffering of countries victimized by the Nazis would be overlooked -- and they proposed taking a broader European approach, instead of a strictly German center on expulsions.
"Organizing such a center as a mainly national project, as is planned by the foundation of expellees in Germany, causes mistrust among our neighbors and cannot be in the mutual interest of our countries," said the open letter.
Among those who signed were Czech Deputy Premier Petr Mares, two former Polish foreign ministers, German Nobel literature laureate Guenter Grass and former German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietreich Genscher.
The memorial proposal comes at a time when Germans are talking more openly about German civilians' suffering during and after World War II -- a topic that long smacked of right-wing nationalism in the minds of many.
The Federation for Expellees, founded in 1944, is led by a conservative politician. But the topic of German victims of the war also is being addressed by liberals.
Most notably, Grass wrote about the sinking of a Nazi vessel rescuing German refugees from the approaching Russian army in last year's novel "Crab Walk."
The author, originally from Danzig - now the Polish city of Gdansk - said he wanted to reclaim the issue from nationalists.
In the chaos that emerged during the Nazi defeat, with millions of Europeans fleeing advancing armies and formerly occupied nations re-establishing control, more than 2.5 million Germans were expelled from areas that became Poland and 3 million from the Sudetenland in the present-day Czech Republic, along with millions of other Germans from other countries.
The Federation of Expellees wants to build a Center against Expulsions as a memorial and learning center in the German capital.
Defending the project, the head of the federation, Erika Steinbach, said the memorial will also address Hitler's mistreatment of citizens in lands Germany occupied, as well as more recent instances of mass expulsions in Africa.
"We want to ensure that expulsions don't become a political method," Steinbach said Tuesday by telephone.
She also insisted that the center will have a "European orientation," stressing that its backers have brought foreign historians and advisers on board, among them Poles and Czechs.
The center so far does not have a site. The foundation has asked the government to help find a suitable building in central Berlin where it could establish the center with permanent and changing exhibits.
Still, the problem of how to remember ordinary Germans' suffering continues to rankle.
Last week, Polish Foreign Minister Wlodziemierz Cimoszewicz acknowledged that the fate of displaced Germans was tragic -- but, he added, "the idea of a European center on expulsions might suggest that we compare the situations of expelled Poles and expelled Germans."
"Those situations are not comparable in a moral dimension," he told the Trybuna newspaper. "Germans bore the consequences of the war they started. Most of them were not expelled but they escaped."
Relations between Prague and Berlin cooled last year after then-Czech Prime Minister Milos Zeman described the Sudeten Germans expelled in 1945 as "Hitler's fifth column."
Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's narrowly defeated election challenger, Edmund Stoiber, slammed the Czech Republic for its refusal to revoke the decrees that exiled the Germans -- a policy that Steinbach also described as "unspeakable."
Copyright 2003 Associated Press

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 Jun 2008 05:46

A good example how history is interpretated by only pointing with fingers on others....

Jan-Hendrik

By the way, the plans of the Czechs to expell all german originating in prewar times :roll:

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses (KIA):

Post by Bergveen » 23 Jun 2008 08:28

Jan-Hendrik,

If you really look well at the history of central Europa over the last 500 years, Hitler perfectly played his cards to the final benefit of the surrounding (minor) countries.
Being not content with his anexations of a few minors (Austria and Czecho-slovakia) and going (far) over the border of what Germany was capable at, Hitler waisted all gains and the Germans paid the bill (until now and perhaps for another couple of hundred years to come).

The same theory is true after the fall of France. Germany (Hitler) was at his highmark. IF he was a realistic man and IF he really wanted to be Germany a "great" power, he had to stop his war and go for a the strongest position in Europe, offering Britain (and France) peace terms and holding Poland and victory over France in his basket as the ultimate prize of his succesful war.

But Hitler was not content and did not want the best for Germany. In a way they (Hitler and Germany) used eachother, but Hitler had the power. From that moment Hitler and Germany were both on on the way of the Götterdämmerung (downfall).

It must be quite clear for the new German generation (and leaders) that the surrounding countries like Poland and the Czechs (like the French, British and Russians) are not very forgiving for what happened and keep Germany hostage by playing (all) the "guilty" card.

Rob

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jun 2008 13:35

Hi Bergveen,

As promised, below are German losses in the Balkans, June 1941 - May 1945:

Date=Cumulative Total
6/41-4/42=1,449
5/42-4/43=5,373
5/43-10/43=16,306
30/11/43=19,785
31/12/43=22,215
31/1/44=24,456
29/2/44=25,670
31/3/44=28,007
30/4/44=30,741
31/5/44=34,328
30/6/44=37,959
31/7/44=42,736
30/8/44=47,296
30/9/44=51,983 or 53,482
31/10/44=61,931 or 63,016
30/11/44=69,970 or 74,760
31/12/44=78,581 or 80,887
31/1/45=84,099
28/2/45=94,316
31/3/45=105,220
20/4/45=109,817

The confused totals for September-December 1944 reflect the confusion of the long German retreat from the Balkans. It appears that only when the front had stabilised again did the staff manage to bring order back to strength returns.

The above figures do not include probably relatively severe losses over 21 April - 8 May 1945 or final surrenders.

Some two-thirds of recorded German losses in the Balkans seem to have occurred after June 1944.

Cheers,

Sid.

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses: Balcans

Post by Bergveen » 23 Jun 2008 16:38

Sid,

Under the Balcans I rank: all parts of Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece and Bulgaria.

Ok, that is exactly what I thought. Now 2 questions: are the cumulative totals in your list the KIA or the KIA & MIA or the KIA, MIA and wounded?

According to WASt about 60.000 German soldiers are burried in Yugoslavia, Macedonia & Albania alone:
- 6.300 in Slovenia (KIA in 1945);
- 20.200 in Croatia (KIA mostly in 44 and 45);
- 16.000 in Serbia (KIA mostly in pocket & fall of Belgrade 1944);
- 12.000 in Bosnia (KIA mostly in 1943 and 1944 during anti-partizan operations);
- 2.000 in Macedonia (KIA mostt during withdrawl battles of Army Group E and F in 1944);
- 3.600 in Albania
- 1.800 in Bulgaria (KIA in august/september 1944)
Total: 60.900

But what about the fallen in Greece, on Crete?? On Crete almost 4465 Germans are burried. Official 3714 of these belonged to the 7th Fallschirmjäger (80%) and 5th Gebirgsjäger Divisisons (20%). The majority because of Operation Herkules but also a few hundred because of partizan activity from 1941 until 1945.
Also 500 members of the 5th Gebirgsjäger Division were lost at sea. Unknown is how many of them eventually were burried among the Fallschirmjäger.

Unclear is of in this total the disputed 80.000 (max number) killed POW's are (partly) counted. "Official" numbers are about 34.000 KIA until december 44. If these 60.000+ are the totals of all the KIA, MIA and died in custody then the disputed number is also solved. Of coarse a lot of bodies are still not found in the mountains of Yugoslavia.

Rüdiger Overmans makes a split between the KIA, MIA and those which were killed as POW's. The KIA and MIA are set at 103.000!!
If looking at the burried: about 70.000, the still not found corpses (10-20.000?) the grand total, inclusive all killed POW's lies somewhere between 80 and 90.000. Most killed after june 1944!!!

Rob

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jun 2008 16:46

Little time,

Q.1) I believe these stats include all dead, wounded and missing as at the dates given.

I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Sid

Bergveen
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Bergveen » 24 Jun 2008 08:45

Graves: the German WASt indicates at 60.000 graves of German soldiers on the Balcans. To this number there must be added 5000 graves on Crete (4000 fallen in May 1941, the others from 1942-1945) and the 1500 fallen in Greece during april/may 1941 and an unknown number in partizan war during the war. On the Greek Islands of Keffalonia, Simi, Cos, Rhodes and Leros the Germans also lost troops, especially in the fall of 1943. This count may be between 1000 and 1500.
Alltogether the number of dead soldiers found is around 70.000.

remaining question: how can the "puzzle" being solved given:

- until december 1944 German losses on the Balcans were official 34.000 KIA & MIA.
- according to the WASt there are some 57.000 graves in former Yugoslavia, 3600 in Albania, 1800 in Bulgaria and about 8000 in Greece (my own computation).
- Rüdiger Overmans gives a number of 103.000 KIA/MIAfor the Balcans.
- There are claims that 75-80.000 German POW's died in and after the War by hands of the Yugoslavs. Official numbers
are around 26-28.000.

Are the given numbers correct?
Are there missing pieces?
Who can solve this puzzle of The numbers?

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