German Losses (KIA)

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Panzergrenadier2967
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Apr 2017 14:06

I had read abot US Grave registration units, did Wehrmacht had this unit or Volksbubnd unit during ww2?

Panzergrenadier2967
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Apr 2017 14:06

*did wehrmacht have Volksbund unit

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tramonte
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by tramonte » 07 Jun 2018 21:02

There seems to be growing tendency to highly exaggerate military losses of enemy. In case of German personal military losses during June 44 to May 45 that thing is becoming more obvious. The less exactly numbers they have, the more they exaggerate them.

US 3rd Army claimed enemy losses of deaths and wounded 3-3.5 times bigger than they actually were.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Michael Kenny
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Jun 2018 21:06

tramonte wrote:There seems to be growing tendency to highly exaggerate military losses of enemy. In case of German personal military losses during June 44 to May 45 that thing is becoming more obvious. The less exactly numbers they have, the more they exaggerate them.

US 3rd Army claimed enemy losses of deaths and wounded 3-3.5 times bigger than they actually were.
This is well known and never taken as a realistic figure. Just as well known as the fact German tank ace kill totals are unrealistic.

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tramonte
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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by tramonte » 08 Jun 2018 07:04

With personal military losses there has always been this huge chaos when using terms like "deaths", "killed" and "killed in action". KIA was great majority of combat deaths but not all. Depends on conditions, the nature of battle (winter time/summer time, rolled over units, attacking troops, stable defense situation) share of deceased wounded soldiers were about 4-10% of all wounded. If let's say some army took casualties of 12 000 KIA and 50 000 WIA, it's obvious that total combat deaths have likely been somewhere between 14 000 and 17 000. If army was rolled over and troops escaped big share of missing in action soldiers might have been badly wounded with not much hope to survive.

On the other hand if we think about the big group of casualties, wounded soldiers, there is chance to overestimate those deceased later. Actually great majority, some 70-75% of wounded were not very serious cases. It's highly questionable was there any cases where 20% or even more of wounded soldiers deceased (if not captured for instance in eastern front) . There are also claims that lots of wounded soldiers deceased years later. This is hardly true at all. I have checked data of wounded Finns and taking sample of those who wounded in June 1944 (rather chaotic period during the war) with these numbers:

June 1944: died in wounds 1 180 (who wounded in June)
1-6 July 1944: 140 died in wounds (who wounded in June 44 but deceased later)
7-14 July 1944: 46 DIW
15-31 July 1944: 41 DIW
1-31 August 1944: 41 DIW
September-October 1944: 36 DIW
Nov 44 to Dec 1945: 20 DIW
1946 - 1950: not confirmed DIW (of course many died just like many men died after the war even if they never wounded in combat)

Share who died in wounds but many months later was relatively small. Official figures of wounded soldiers of Finnish armed forces in June 1944 was 16 311. Of them 1 180 DIW during same month (7.23%). During next month 227 (1.4%), in August 41 (0.25%) and after that 56 (0.34%). That last share of just 1/3 percent is rather good number describing that huge majority of wounded soldiers who deceased, did decease very soon or relatively soon.

When thinking about how many those millions of wounded German soldiers deceased after May 1945 we should focus that relatively small share of latter DIW. I'm not claiming that after the war just 0.34% of wounded German soldiers deceased but giving some perspective to avoid large scale exaggeration.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Bergveen » 19 Jan 2020 16:30

Qvist already pointed out the problem of the burials: not always clear they were killed in fighting there, period not clear and could also have died of wounds of fightimg else.

German burried soldiers according to (current) country WO 2, all causes, including died/killed POW’s:

Russia: at least 1.000.000. 1941-44; At Leningrad: 54.000. Smolensk, Brjansk, Rhzev, Demjansk, Moskou, Stalingrad (175.000), Rostov, Caucasus.
Ukraine: 880.000. 41-44; Battles of Kiev, Sevastopol, Kharkov, Nikopol, Krivoy Rog, Cherkassy (25.000), Brody pocket (30.000), Ternopol (5000).
Poland: 478.000. 1939: 18.000; 1944: Warsaw, Baranow, 1945: Silesia; Breslau 6000), Pommerania, East-Prussia/Danzig/Gotenhafen; Wisla.
Beylo-Russia: 250.000. 1941; 1944: Minsk, Vitebsk, Orscha, Bubruisk, Mogilov
France: 239.000. 1940: 40.000; 40.000 as POW, 50.000 died from wounds on the Eastfront. 110.000: Normandy (75.000), Dieppe, St. Malo,
Brest, Falaise, Calais, Marseille, Toulon, Montelimar, Metz, Elsass 44//45, Operatie Nordwind.
Germany: 200-250.000 (Oder, Halbe, Berlin/ Saargebiet, Rheinland, Rheinwiesen lager; 100.000 died from wounds from the Eastfront.
Moldovo: 150.000 (1941; August 1944: Kishinev pocket).
Tjechie: 143.000 (1944/45: Ostrava; 1945: Prague pocket)
Italy: 107.000 (1943-45: 72.000; Sicily, Bernhard Line, Cassino, Gustav-Line, Gotic Line; 35.000 died from wounds on the Eastfront).
Latvia: 100.000 (1941; 44/45: Kurland)
Hungaria: 54.000 (1944: Debrecen; 1945, Budapest pocket: 39.000).
Austria: 45.000 (1945: Wien, Seealpen)
Belgium: 39.000 (1940 en 1944: Mons pocket en Ardennes).
Rumania: 38.000 (1944: Iasi, Targul Frumos and finally Ploesti Oilfields).
Slovakia: 35.000 (1944/45: Kosice)
Estonia: 35.000 (1941; 1944: Narva/ Ösel peninsula/ Sworbe island)
Netherlands: 32.000 (1940, 1944: Arnhem, Overloon, Breskens, Walcheren)
Lithuania: 20.000 (1944: Vilnius)
Croatia: 20.000 (1944/45)
North-Africa: 18.000 (1941-1943: Tunis: 8500; Tobruck, Gazala, El Alamein)
Serbia: 15.600 (1944: Belgrado pocket)
Finland: 15.000 (1941-1944: Petsamo, Kareliia, Saarema island)
Greece: 14.2500 (Kreta: 4465; Athene: 9900; Rhodos/Leros)
Norway: 11.500 (1940 Weserübung, Narvik, 1944/45: Kirkeness)
Luxemburg: 11.000 (1944/45: Battle of the Bulge)
Denmark: 10.000 (1945 en POW’s daarna)
Slovenia: 6.300 (1945)
Britain: 5.000 (POW’s)
Albania: 2.400
Bulgaria: 1.800 (1944)
Bosnia; (40.000 POW's???)

Oceans: 60.000 (Kriegsmarine 55.000 of which 27.000 U-boat personel; Luftwaffe: 5000).
Baltic Sea: 25.000 (1945: Wilhelm Gustloff & Steuben etc).
Black Sea: 15.000 (1944: evacuations; Teja & Totilja)
Medit. Sea: 10.000 (1941-1943: kaiks 5e Gebirgs Division at Crete, Invasion Leros; 2 transports 41 tanks 2e/5e Pts divisie; 43: evacuation Tunesia).

All above numbers are "at least" numbers. All soldiers died from all causes. The killed without being found are NOT included like many in Yugoslavia and Russia (Siberia). Alltogether about 4,8 million German soldiers of German origin died in and because of WW2

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