German Losses (KIA)

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 16 Apr 2009 13:05

It provides the number of total KIA of Heer as 15450 (including 819 officers), while the real casualty number of Heer in Poland (the one given in the report from 30.11.1944 - so the last known report concerning Heer casualties in Poland made before the fall of the III Reich) was at least 16843 killed + 320 missing (as many as 1713 men more), so the number of officers of Heer killed or missing was certainly also much bigger than 819.
If I'm not wrong the 30/8/44 compilation says 15450 soldiers + 819 officers but I have to check again. There are more documents on officer losses in BA/MA files such as RH 7/653. I will look at them specifically next time.

Michate
Member
Posts: 1429
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 10:50
Location: Germany

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 16 Apr 2009 14:04

If I'm not wrong the 30/8/44 compilation says 15450 soldiers + 819 officers but I have to check again. There are more documents on officer losses in BA/MA files such as RH 7/653. I will look at them specifically next time.
Hello thom,

the number of officers is included in the overall number, as is made clear in the first footnote at the bottom of the same page of the document, where the figures are provided.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 16 Apr 2009 15:26

Thanks Michate.

User avatar
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3691
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poznan, Poland

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 19 May 2009 21:46

Qvist wrote: 4. Gemeldete Todesfälle. RW48/5

Date since sep39 week since 220641

2106 112713 0
2806 113737 1024 1024
507 114492 755 1779
1207 115915 1423 3202
1907 118140 2225 5427
2607 121463 3323 8750
208 124895 3432 12182
908 128679 3784 15966
1608 132767 4088 20054
2308 138675 5908 25962
3008 145333 6658 32620
609 152184 6851 39471
1309 159460 7276 46747
2009 165404 5944 52691
2709 173149 7745 60436
410 181882 8733 69169
1110 189467 7585 76754
1810 198008 8541 85295
2510 206361 8353 93648
111 215826 9465 103113
811 225539 9713 112826
1511 236164 10625 123451
2211 248347 12183 135634
2911 258104 9757 145391
612 268086 9982 155373
1312 274552 6466 161839
2012 280501 5949 167788
2412 283074 2573 170361
301 287868 4794 175155

1942

1001 294006 6138 181293
1701 301032 7026 188319
2401 308648 7616 195935
3101 315446 6798 202733
702 322321 6875 209608
1402 330897 8576 218184
2102 338030 7133 225317
2802 344740 6710 232027
703 351324 6584 238611
1403 358843 7519 246130
2103 366908 8065 254195
2803 374595 7687 261882
404 381567 6972 268854
1104 388397 6830 275684
1804 396761 8364 284048
2504 407227 10466 294514
205 415815 8588 303102
905 426037 10222 313324
1605 436654 10617 323941
2305 448771 12117 336058
3005 458307 9536 345594
606 470390 12083 357677
1306 480993 10603 368280
2006 489865 8872 377152
2706 501465 11600 388752
407 511980 10515 399267
1107 522160 10180 409447
1807 531945 9785 419232
2507 541609 9664 428896
108 550058 8449 437345
808 558311 8253 445598
1508 566494 8183 453781
2208 574088 7594 461375
2908 582491 8403 469778
509 591105 8614 478392
1209 600420 9315 487707
1909 609644 9224 496931
2609 618575 8931 505862
310 628741 10166 516028
1010 641853 13112 529140
1710 652823 10970 540110
2410 660519 7696 547806
3110 670789 10270 558076
711 679160 8371 566447
1411 686103 6943 573390
2111 694464 8361 581751
2811 703520 9056 590807
512 710856 7336 598143
1212 719155 8299 606442
1912 727407 8252 614694
2312 731147 3740 618434

1943

201 735839 4692 623126
901 742560 6721 629847
1601 750055 7495 637342
2301 757108 7053 644395
3001 765120 8012 652407
602 773420 8300 660707
1302 781808 8388 669095
2002 790494 8686 677781
2702 798526 8032 685813
603 806479 7953 693766
1303 812692 6213 699979
2003 818056 5364 705343
2703 824006 5950 711293
304 829983 5977 717270
1004 837125 7142 724412
1704 845827 8702 733114
2404 853143 7316 740430
105 858229 5086 745516
805 868717 10488 756004
1505 881007 12290 768294
2205 889733 8726 777020
2905 900921 11188 788208
506 912751 11830 800038
1206 923793 11042 811080
1906 932290 8497 819577
2606 942864 10574 830151
Do you have got any similar figures for years 1939 - 1940?

By the way:
Qvist wrote:2. WH zentralstatistik
Gesamtverluste des Heeres an Toten

Month Tot nc deaths (approx)
1941
Juni 18320 2000
Juli 45358 2000

[...]
5. Gesamtverluste des Heeres an Toten RM7/808
Wehrmacht Verlustwesen
includes Non-combat losses

41
Juni 18320
Juli 45358

[...]
Numbers are exactly the same - but you say that the first figure in the first data does not include non-combat losses and in the second one it does?

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 16:59
Location: Europe

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Qvist » 19 May 2009 22:27

Do you have got any similar figures for years 1939 - 1940?
Not a running total, but you see the total up to 21.6.41 in the second column for 2106.
Numbers are exactly the same - but you say that the first figure in the first data does not include non-combat losses and in the second one it does?
Well no, I don't say that. The NC figures in the first data would I presume be included in the total.

cheers

User avatar
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3691
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poznan, Poland

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 19 May 2009 23:03

Btw - I have made a small experiment using the Volksbund database.

Volksbund database lists over 4,400,000 Verlustmeldungen - surnames (including around 3,550,000 from or resulting from WW II - who died up to around 1948 / 1949).

The database is incomplete - according to VB during the next years around 800,000 new surnames will be added (which is around 18%). According to my estimations based on casualty figures at least 20% and up to around 30% or more (if taking Overman's data into consideration) of all WW II casualties are still not there.

The most common three first letters of German surnames are "Sch".

The "Sch" in the Volksbund database is 347,604 (= around 7,9% of all surnames in the database).

The "Sch" data from Volksbund for years 1938, 1939 and 1940 is the following:

1938 (the whole year) - 6

01.1939 - 2 *
02.1939 - 3
03.1939 - 3 *
04.1939 - 3
05.1939 - 0
06.1939 - 3
07.1939 - 2 *
08.1939 - 10 **
09.1939 - 1370 (Polenfeldzug)
10.1939 - 170 (Polenfeldzug)
month not given (only year) - 15 (mainly listed as vermißt) - mainly Polenfeldzug
11.1939 - 94 (around 40 of them died in field hospitals in Poland)
12.1939 - 87 (around 44 of them died in field hospitals in Poland)

01.1940 - 68 (around 23 of them died in field hospitals in Poland)
02.1940 - 117 (around 28 of them died in field hospitals in Poland)
03.1940 - 90 (around 35 of them died in field hospitals in Poland) ***
04.1940 - 295 (Norwegenfeldzug)
05.1940 - 1842 (Westfeldzug + Norwegenfeldzug)
06.1940 - 2293 (Westfeldzug + Norwegenfeldzug + BoB)
07.1940 - 256 (BoB)
08.1940 - 224 (BoB)
09.1940 - 246 (BoB)
10.1940 - 191 (BoB)
11.1940 - 163
12.1940 - 132

[...]

06.1941 - 1509
07.1941 - 3093
08.1941 - 3204
09.1941 - 2919
10.1941 - 2327
11.1941 - 1974
12.1941 - 2794

* Including 3 who in fact died in Poland in September of 1939 but is listed as "Vermisst" since 01.07.1939 - VB sometimes provides the last known date when a person was still alive, not the real death / missing date.
** For 99% all of them in fact died in Poland in September of 1939.
*** Last known by me German officer fatal casualty related to the Polish campaign was Oberleutnant von Loesch who died of wounds from Polenfeldzug on 17.03.1940:
von Loesch (Konrad Julius), 30.12.1899, Oblt., -, -, 17.03.1940 n. Verw. (Charite Berlin), VB (Grab: Lorzendorf, Krs. Namslau), Manstein, Verlorene Siege, S. 54 f.
Considering that "Sch" is around 7,9% of all what is listed - we can estimate how many is listed by VB for separated months:

1938 (the whole year) - 76

01.1939 - 25
02.1939 - 38
03.1939 - 38
04.1939 - 38
05.1939 - 12
06.1939 - 38
07.1939 - 25 *
08.1939 - 127 **
09.1939 - 17342 (Polenfeldzug)
10.1939 - 2152 (Polenfeldzug)
month not given (only year) - 190 (mainly listed as vermißt) - mainly Polenfeldzug
11.1939 - 1190
12.1939 - 1101

01.1940 - 861
02.1940 - 1481 ***
03.1940 - 1139 ****
04.1940 - 3734 (Norwegenfeldzug)
05.1940 - 23316 (Westfeldzug + Norwegenfeldzug)
06.1940 - 29025 (Westfeldzug + Norwegenfeldzug + BoB)
07.1940 - 3241 (BoB)
08.1940 - 2835 (BoB)
09.1940 - 3114 (BoB)
10.1940 - 2418 (BoB)
11.1940 - 2063
12.1940 - 1671

[...]

06.1941 - 19101
07.1941 - 39152
08.1941 - 40557
09.1941 - 36949
10.1941 - 29456
11.1941 - 24987
12.1941 - 35367

But we must remember that what is listed is not fully complete, as was said previously. Overall VB WW II data is incomplete in between 20 and 30+ per cent - I suppose that VB data from the last stages of war is incomplete to the largest extent. And from my experience in this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120220

I know that Polenfeldzug related VB data is probably around 10% to 15% incomplete.

Edit:
Africa: 12808/90052
From VB:

Der Volksbund legte für über 20.000 deutsche Gefallene in Ägypten, Algerien, Libyen, Marokko und Tunesien Kriegsgräberstätten an.
West after invasion: 54754/338935
West until 30/5/44: 66166/3218
From VB:

Der Zweite Weltkrieg kostete in Frankreich 240.000 Menschen auf deutscher Seit.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 20 May 2009 21:18

10.1939 - 170 (Polenfeldzug)
I looked at the first 10 of this list - just half of them died in Poland of 1939.
12.1939 - 87 (around 44 of them died in field hospitals in Poland)
Only around 10 died on former Polish territory. I guess there are similar ratios with the other months you quote. If someone died in Breslau or Stettin does not necessarily mean that he suffered from wounds caused in Poland.

But interesting approach, consistent with WVW/WED data for Poland and Westfeldzug 1939/40 but major differences for the Ostfeldzug 1941. VB's currently incomplete data is at least partly based on the same WASt dataset used by Overmans so the figures may finally be comparable.

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 16:59
Location: Europe

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Qvist » 20 May 2009 21:28

I still don't quite see the analytical usefulness of monthly deaths figures that encompass deaths from all causes with no meaningful territorial division, including from wounds suffered during some indeterminate previous monthly period? And with an inaccuracy that is both estimated and major?

cheers

Michate
Member
Posts: 1429
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 10:50
Location: Germany

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 21 May 2009 06:29

Please note not all graves listed are for soldiers only, there are civilians included, too.

FWIW, I did a quick search for my own family's name.

It is a rather unusual name and I found only 6 graves listed, of which at least 2 and possibly 3 are civilians (one being a woman of over 70 years).

But that would mainly apply for the last period of the war.

User avatar
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3691
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poznan, Poland

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 May 2009 11:03

Please note not all graves listed are for soldiers only, there are civilians included, too.
Yes, because Volksbund list not only Wehrmacht members but members of all armed formations + also some civilians.

But often these civilians died in combat (members of "V Column", etc.). For example:
Nachname: Ordon
Vorname: Ludwig
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 18.09.1914
Geburtsort: Ellgut-Woischnik
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Hohenlinde b/Beuthen
Nachname: Breitkopf
Vorname: Hans
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 23.08.1910
Geburtsort: Kattowitz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 11.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Beuthen/O.S.
Nachname: Bulla
Vorname: Robert
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 03.11.1914
Geburtsort: Halernba/Kattowitz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Hindenburg O.S. Delbrük-Schächte
Nachname: Brauner
Vorname: Josef
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 13.03.1912
Geburtsort: Königshütte
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Königshütte
Only around 10 died on former Polish territory.
You should count also those who died in hospitals in Stettin, Konigsberg, Hamburg, Breslau, etc. - not only those who died on Polish pre-war territory - because as we established in our thread about KIA German officers, many seriously wounded in Poland in 1939 were transported to hospitals in these places (either by land or by sea - by hospital ships).

If it comes to wounded transported to the Reich by hospital ships:

1. On 12.09.1939 German hospital ship "Berlin" - 15,268 BRT - was sent to Danzig and took 416 wounded German soldiers to the Reich.

2. Between 27.09.1939 and 04.10.1939 ship "Wilhelm Gustloff" took 585 wounded Polish and German soldiers and several wounded German sailors from sunk by Polish submarine "M 85" to the Reich.

3. "Berlin" once again took 133 seriously wounded German soldiers from Pillau (in Eastern Prussia, today in Russia) to Swinemünde (today Swinoujscie in Poland).

4. "Stuttgart" between 13.09.1939 and 17.09.1939 took 161 wounded and sick German soldiers to the Reich.

5. In early October of 1939 "Berlin" took 500 seriously wounded German soldiers to Hamburg.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = up to around 1,500 wounded (mainly seriously wounded) German soldiers.
I still don't quite see the analytical usefulness of monthly deaths figures that encompass deaths from all causes with no meaningful territorial division, including from wounds suffered during some indeterminate previous monthly period? And with an inaccuracy that is both estimated and major?
I realize that these estimations might be not very accurate but they might be also very accurate.

This method is similar to the method used by Rudiger Overmans in his count - general estimations based on relatively low samples of data.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 23 May 2009 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by thom » 23 May 2009 11:13

Volkssturm is perhaps listed as civilians, too? This would explain larger numbers of civilians in the last period of the war (except of course a 70 year old lady).

User avatar
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3691
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poznan, Poland

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 May 2009 11:24

By the way - Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik from 30.11.1944 also provides the following data for casualties during the first year of the war (01.09.1939 - 31.08.1940):

Heer:

KIA and DoW - 64,204
MIA - 1,550
Died in accidents, died of illnesses, suicides, etc. - 12,150 **
Executions - 485
POWs and interned - 488
Deserters - 4
Released from service (mainly seriously wounded) - 16,644

KIA + MIA Heer - 65,754
Total deaths Heer - 78,389 (while Overmans provides only 81,000 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)

** This number seems to be very big?! - although during the following years similar non-combat losses were even bigger?! Why so big numbers - during some months of 1939 and 1940 total casualties (both combat and non-combat) were lower than 1,000 or just a little bit over 1,000 (in the whole Wehrmacht, not only casualties of Heer !) - and even during these months Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe were suffering combat casualties - so such big non-combat losses of Heer - together with Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe - during just 12 months seem to be impossible!

Luftwaffe:

KIA and DoW - 6,480
MIA - 1,196
Died in accidents, died of illnesses, suicides, etc. - 1,573
Executions - 26
POWs and interned - 793
Deserters - 0
Released from service (mainly seriously wounded) - 1,549

KIA + MIA Luftwaffe - 7,676
Total deaths Luftwaffe - 9,275 (while Overmans provides as many as 15,033 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)

Kriegsmarine:

KIA and DoW - 3,021
MIA - 3
Died in accidents, died of illnesses, suicides, etc. - 400
Executions - 4
POWs and interned - 793
Deserters - 0
Released from service (mainly seriously wounded) - 151

KIA + MIA Kriegsmarine - 3,023
Total deaths Kriegsmarine - 3,427 (while Overmans provides as many as 6,000 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)

Total Wehrmacht 01.09.1939 - 31.08.1940:

KIA and DoW - 73,705
MIA - 2,749
Died in accidents, died of illnesses, suicides, etc. - 14,132
Executions - 515
POWs and interned - 2,671
Deserters - 4
Released from service (mainly seriously wounded) - 18,344

-----------------------------------------------------------

And now I wonder what is the breakdown of these casualties:

As far as I know:

KIA + MIA:

1. Poland 1939:

Heer – 17,163
Luftwaffe – 517
Kriegsmarine – 80

2. West 1939 (until the end of the year):

Heer + Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine - 722

3. Norwegenfeldzug 1940:

Heer – 2,257
Luftwaffe – 789
Kriegsmarine - 849

4. Westfeldzug 1940:

Heer – 41,257
Luftwaffe – 3,756
Kriegsmarine – 289

5. Luftschlacht um England 1940 (estimated until the end of August of 1940):

Heer – 0
Luftwaffe – 2,174
Kriegsmarine – 0

Total:

Heer – 60,677
Luftwaffe – 7,236
Kriegsmarine – 1,218

As you can see - Luftwaffe combat figures are almost the same. Kriegsmarine - considering that it was suffering similar combat casualties during each month (not only during campaigns listed above) - also. But if it comes to Heer - around 5,000 KIA / MIA / DoW from Heer "vanished" somewhere?! Maybe casualty figures for operations & campaigns listed above do not include soldiers DoW after the campaign but only KIA / DoW and MIA during the campaign?!

This would explain why around 5,000 combat deaths of Heer "disappeared" somewhere, while Heer was not participating in any other operations during this period, except these listed above (1 + 2 + 3 + 4).
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 23 May 2009 11:52, edited 8 times in total.

Michate
Member
Posts: 1429
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 10:50
Location: Germany

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 23 May 2009 11:33

Well, of my short list, the second civilian was a 79 year old man, who died in June 1945 and was buried at Copenhagen, next to the lady I already mentioned (probably he was her husband).

You would need some really good arguments to convince me that he was in the Volkssturm.

The third (unclear) civilian was buried in Berlin in 1940, so clearly this was not Volkssturm either.

As a simple fact, the Volksbund also lists the graves of a lot of civilians from the former Eastern German provinces, who perished during the flight or expulsion.

Michate
Member
Posts: 1429
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 10:50
Location: Germany

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Michate » 23 May 2009 11:41

...(while Overmans provides only 81,000 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)

...(while Overmans provides as many as 15,033 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)

...(while Overmans provides as many as 6,000 for the period 1939 - 1940 !!!)
It helps a little to have a look how Overmans actually calculated his figures.

Basically he took a sample of 1 out of 1,000 of the Totenkartei and 1 out of 2,000 of the other Kartei, so in his sample he must have found something like 10 to 20 people of Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine as basis for these figures.

The number of cases is so small here that his figures are not very reliable in this case.

User avatar
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3691
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poznan, Poland

Re: German Losses (KIA)

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 May 2009 11:55

Basically he took a sample of 1 out of 1,000 of the Totenkartei and 1 out of 2,000 of the other Kartei, so in his sample he must have found something like 10 to 20 people of Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine as basis for these figures.

The number of cases is so small here that his figures are not very reliable in this case.
I agree.

But I'm not sure what is the time frame for his figures. Does he count these casualties until the end of 1940 or only until the end of August (so during the first year of war) - like Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik?
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 23 May 2009 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”