Re-arming Panzer divisions

[PaulJ]

Hmmm... well, even taking the veracity of their accounts unquestioned, I'm not sure that off hand remarks in one phone call amount to much of a serious proposition. And the suggestion that he was murdered to shut him up smells of a conspiracy nutter, doesn't it?

Cheers,

PaulJ

[Danzig69]

It seems as if Churchill and Patton shared their distrust/hatred of the Soviets. A few people have mentioned the Allies under powered and war weary at the time of Germany's surrender, do you think a large force would have been necessary to take/destroy Moscow? The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan who is to say they couldn't do the same to the Russians?

[Larso]

Another thought - the invasion of Japan was being planned for. The US was committed to this and a dozen or so divisions were shipping to the Pacific. Many of the remaining units were shedding veterans by the thousands. Patton may have been interested in going at the Soviets but even he must've realised his fighting force had declined too sharply. Unless his 'plan' was to do it all in June 45 or something?

[Denim Demon]

One important reason to why the us and gb didnt oppose the soviets over poland and eastern europe was that the us believed they needed the help of the soviets to win the war against japan as soon as posible. The us intended to withdraw from europe as soon as the fighting had ended and so gb wanted a good working athomsphere with the russians. War against the soviet union was certainly not on the agenda.

[Carl Schwamberger]

While reviewing the history of the OSS activity in Europe 1944-45 I noticed a lack of evidence for Patton, or the US 3rd Army using German PoW. SHAEF policy was German PoW would be handled in accordance with the Geneva Conventions guidelines. Specifically they were not to be recruited to participate in military actions against German. The OSS liasion section with 3rd Army appears to have complied with this. I've not seen any evidence they tried to recruit any German PoW for their operations. Both 7th Army & 6th Army Group seem to have violated this policy. The OSS was able to set up a screening agency, to look for likely candidates amoung the PoW passing through 6th AG custody. It is claimed several hundred German PoW were interviewed and "43" were recruited for OSS operations inside German & Austria. Half those seem to have actualy been sent into German controled territory between December 1944 & April 1945. A similar operation is claimed for the OSS group based in Italy.

So it appears Patton did not take up even this small recruitment of Germans. Similarly I've seen little or no evidence he communicated with any German generals or other military leaders concerning cooperative military activities. I've a open mind on this & any evidence of Patton taking any action that would set up Germans to continue to oppose the Soviet forces interesting. Absent any evidence we are still stuck with Patton's remarks being the alcohol talking or perhaps the rantings of a exhausted elderly man.

[Danzig69]

I would love to do more research on this topic, but I wouldn't know where to begin. I would also like to hear the thoughts of other high ranking US/British commanders. I'm surprised we haven't seen this discussed on the History Channel.

Great reply's on all your posts guys, thanks for posting.

[Rob - wssob2]

A question I have always wondered about, can't seem to find any information on the topic, I'm sure someone here has insight. How true was the story that Gen. Patton wanted to re-arm 26 Panzer divisions and combine them with his forces to invade the crippled Soviet Union in 1945? This could have stopped the Cold War before it started, not to mention subjecting Eastern Europe to 50 years of brutal Soviet influence.

As with most heresay, it's 95% b.s. but with a grain of truth. In May 1945, Patton had to be sternly ordered by Bradley to halt in Czechoslovakia - he had wanted to march onwards towards Prague instead of halting at the Enns River demarcation line. On May 6th, Patton, during a conversation in which Patton complained about the "point system" of allowing US troops to return to the US, he told the Undersecretary of War, "if you wanted Moscow, I could give it to you" and wrote in his diary on May 18th, "If it should be necessary to fight the Russians, the sooner we do it the better." There's no doubt that frankly, Patton didn't want the war to stop and didn't trust the Russians (he didn't trust the British either, but that's another story)

After a short celebratory tour back in the States, Patton was posted back in Europe, bitterly disappointed he didn't get a combat command in China or the Pacific theater. He command as military governor of Bavaria was in short disastrous - bored and frustrated, he dragged his heels on the disarmament and denazification programs, refused to disband Waffen-SS troops, kept local Nazis in positions of power, made disparaging remarks about displaced person civilian refugees and some frankly anti-Semitic remarks about the few surviving Jews in his sector that survived the Holocaust. In September 1945 his press conference comparison of Nazis to American political parties caused a storm of controversy back in the US. Ike, as Supreme Commander, had to step in, replaced the local Nazis with more politically-palatable alternates, and fired Patton in early October.

During the controversy in September, Patton had a phone conversation with General Joe McNarney in which Patton shouted, "...WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT THOSE GODDAMNED RUSSIANS THINK!! WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT THEM SOONER OR LATER, WITHIN THE NEXT GENERATION. WHY NOT DO IT NOW WHILE ARE ARMY IS INTACT AND THE DAMN RUSSIANS CAN HAVE THEIR HIND END KICKED BACK INTO RUSSIA IN THREE MONTHS!? WE CAN DO IT EASILY WITH THE GERMAN TROOPS WE HAVE, IF WE JUST ARM THEM AND TAKE THEM WITH US! THEY HATE THE BASTARDS!"

McNarney told Patton to shut up, to which Patton responded that he could arrange a combat incident that looked like the Russians' fault. (McNarney, please note, was worried that the Soviets might be wiretapping the line).

My source is Ladislas Farago's excellent The Last Days of Patton - I suggest you take a look.

During the Cold War, Patton's accidental death due to a traffic accident was spun by right-wing conspiracy theorists into the allegation that Patton was assassinated for his bellicose views.

As for a "plan" to arm "26 Panzer Divisions" - Patton didn't have the ways or the means to do so. A brilliant combat commander, he was a frustrated, intemperate, obnoxious and politically-dunderheaded occupation administrator - a sad ending to a brilliant, if occasionally controversial, military career.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks for those bits. I wonder exactly what 'SS' were not disarmed in Pattons administrative area?

[kamehouse]

War against the soviet union was certainly not on the agenda.

It was a possibility though.More details on Churchill's Operation Unthinkable:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... urope.html
and there:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=139411

[paratatruc]

Another intelligent message

It seems as if Churchill and Patton shared their distrust/hatred of the Soviets. A few people have mentioned the Allies under powered and war weary at the time of Germany's surrender, do you think a large force would have been necessary to take/destroy Moscow? The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan who is to say they couldn't do the same to the Russians?

I wonder why respected members of this forum actually make the effort to answer to such insanities?

[Denim Demon]

I would recommend Laurence Rees book: "World War two, behind closed doors". It gives good insight into the relationship between the three great powers, and outlines the policy of the US and GB with regards to the Soviet Union. You will also find that any attack against the SU after the colaps of germany was very far from the policy of churchill, roosevelt and truman.
what credebility would the west have if it would break its treaty with the su, just as hitler had?

The west hoped (somewhat naive) that the wartime alliance would continue into the postwar era, and that Stalin would cooperate with them.

Regards

dd

[Carl Schwamberger]

Another intelligent message

It seems as if Churchill and Patton shared their distrust/hatred of the Soviets. A few people have mentioned the Allies under powered and war weary at the time of Germany's surrender, do you think a large force would have been necessary to take/destroy Moscow? The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan who is to say they couldn't do the same to the Russians?

I wonder why respected members of this forum actually make the effort to answer to such insanities?

I suspect that like me they are speaking to others who might not yet read up on the subject and not to the person who posts the "insanities".

[Yoozername]

The Soviet military, while powerful and well developed to fight the Nazi forces, would have been overwhelmed by the Allied military.

The Soviet lack of a long range bomber force would have resulted in Allied dominance of air power. In fact, the Soviets were dependant on the Allies for shipments of high octane aviation fuel. That, and the need for other Allied supplies like food and other sundries, would have made the soviet roll back an easy task.

Bombers would cut all rail links for the Soviets. The bombing would have isolated large pockets of troops and vehicles that could be encircled and captured. I doubt the Soviets had the amount of anti-aircraft that the Germans developed towards the end of the war.

But I believe both sides soldiers had had enough. Only crazy communists and war-happy generals still wanted more war in 1945.

[Danzig69]

Recently rewatched a History Channel show on Rommel, didn't realize he was also in favor of joining the US and Britain in an invasion of the Soviet Union after Germany(Rommel discussed this?) surrendered to western forces shortly after the Normandy invasion. He was killed/forced to commit suicide soon after...

[Larso]

One of the war magazines - I can't remember its name - examined this. They included the remnants of the German army as part of the 'Allied' order of battle. They concluded that Allied airpower would've decided the issue in the West's favour.