Re-arming Panzer divisions

[Kelvin]

The Soviet military, while powerful and well developed to fight the Nazi forces, would have been overwhelmed by the Allied military.

The Soviet lack of a long range bomber force would have resulted in Allied dominance of air power. In fact, the Soviets were dependant on the Allies for shipments of high octane aviation fuel. That, and the need for other Allied supplies like food and other sundries, would have made the soviet roll back an easy task.

Bombers would cut all rail links for the Soviets. The bombing would have isolated large pockets of troops and vehicles that could be encircled and captured. I doubt the Soviets had the amount of anti-aircraft that the Germans developed towards the end of the war.

But I believe both sides soldiers had had enough. Only crazy communists and war-happy generals still wanted more war in 1945.

You overestimate the importance of air power in that period, if air power is so effective, why US and Britain cannot finish the war in the West in a couple of months after June 1944 ? The Western campaign lasted for eleven months in where allies only fought in tiny area of France, the Low Countries and western Germany. And Russian had a huge territoiries which enabled them to escape US to close the encirclement and withdrew to the rear. The allies with effective airpower cannot destroy 1.3 million German troops in the west so quickly while Russian had 6 million field troop to counter and were distributed in their huge territories.

And why German would help US sincerely when the latter help create that situation in 1945 ? If new German warlord had 26 new Panzer divisions, and other infantry troops, they might turn their gun to US troop too.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Recently rewatched a History Channel show on Rommel, didn't realize he was also in favor of joining the US and Britain in an invasion of the Soviet Union after Germany(Rommel discussed this?) surrendered to western forces shortly after the Normandy invasion. He was killed/forced to commit suicide soon after...

Rommel might be described as politically naive. Actually, I'd call him and a great many other German leaders clueless. I rember many years ago people telling me Rommel had studied the campaigns of Lee in the US Civil War. Perhaps if he studied Grant a understanding of the phrase "Unconditional Surrender" may have resulted.

[bklooste]

I think you would have got 5 divisions of kids durring 45... So basically US/UK vs Russia . The allied airforce strategic bombing arm would be pointless , i dont think there was a huge difference in tactical airforce in 45 , the soviet air force could have held long enough while 20K tanks in the hands of veterens wrapped up the allies into all sort of pockets.

So +1 for Stalin visiting Paris.

[pipleydreb]

General Patton was a fighting man, a true Soldier. He thought like a Soldier, and fought like a Soldier. He was the Allied General that the German High Command were the most afraid of and concerned with . After V-E day , Patton was assigned the position of "Military Governor of Bavaria". He was in charge of a large number of German POW"s . He also became friendly with a number of German Army Officers and former Waffen SS Officers. He ordered that the weapons of the German POW's be Kept in a way that would allow the quick arming of German POW's if the need should arise. German weapons were stacked in close proximity of the German POW's.There were many German soldiers at Patton's disposal and all of the former Waffen SS hated communists, and many of the regular army POW's hated them as well. The Russians raped German women, and killed German men as a routine method of operations. The NKVD was every bit as brutal and evil as the SS.
Not very many General's had the battlefield know-how to skillfully command troops at the Theater-level and win . General Patton did and so did General MacArthur. Guys like Bradley and Montgomery won with superior numbers, not battlefield brilliance. While the Red Army was superior in numbers, their fight was tremendously aided by American supplies and Vehicles. Thousands of Studebaker trucks allowed the Russians to mobilize their soldiers and bring them to the German front. The American and British Air forces and Naval forces were far superior to Russian Air and Naval power. The Red Army did not have much Air Force resistance from the Germans in late 1944 and 1945. Tanks are no match for heavy bombers. African and Middle Eastern oil was firmly in the hands of the British and American forces, with very little chance of the Russians being able to interfere with the Allied supply chain . No one had a match for the B_29 bomber or the US Aircraft Carriers. China was being liberated and the Japanese had lost the ability to re-supply their forces. And at that time the French and Chinese loved the USA. well all except De-Gaulle.
A fight between the Americans and Western European forces against the Red Army would have been a very destructive affair, however given that the US did have the capability to build and deliver Atomic weapons, it is not likely that the Red Army would have taken Western Europe.


Patton: A Genius for War by Carlo D'Este

[pipleydreb]

It was US/British air power that destroyed German war factories and Fuel sources that allowed the Red Army to advance as it did. Also the Russian military was heavily supplied with Allied fuel , food, arms, (Winchester, Singer Sewing Machine company, Rock-Ola Juke Box machine company, Remington, Springfield, GE, Westinghouse) and many other American companies produced Rifles, Pistols, and ammunition for the Russian effort.

[Kelvin]

General Patton was a fighting man, a true Soldier. He thought like a Soldier, and fought like a Soldier. He was the Allied General that the German High Command were the most afraid of and concerned with . After V-E day , Patton was assigned the position of "Military Governor of Bavaria". He was in charge of a large number of German POW"s . He also became friendly with a number of German Army Officers and former Waffen SS Officers. He ordered that the weapons of the German POW's be Kept in a way that would allow the quick arming of German POW's if the need should arise. German weapons were stacked in close proximity of the German POW's.There were many German soldiers at Patton's disposal and all of the former Waffen SS hated communists, and many of the regular army POW's hated them as well. The Russians raped German women, and killed German men as a routine method of operations. The NKVD was every bit as brutal and evil as the SS.
Not very many General's had the battlefield know-how to skillfully command troops at the Theater-level and win . General Patton did and so did General MacArthur. Guys like Bradley and Montgomery won with superior numbers, not battlefield brilliance. While the Red Army was superior in numbers, their fight was tremendously aided by American supplies and Vehicles. Thousands of Studebaker trucks allowed the Russians to mobilize their soldiers and bring them to the German front. The American and British Air forces and Naval forces were far superior to Russian Air and Naval power. The Red Army did not have much Air Force resistance from the Germans in late 1944 and 1945. Tanks are no match for heavy bombers. African and Middle Eastern oil was firmly in the hands of the British and American forces, with very little chance of the Russians being able to interfere with the Allied supply chain . No one had a match for the B_29 bomber or the US Aircraft Carriers. China was being liberated and the Japanese had lost the ability to re-supply their forces. And at that time the French and Chinese loved the USA. well all except De-Gaulle.
A fight between the Americans and Western European forces against the Red Army would have been a very destructive affair, however given that the US did have the capability to build and deliver Atomic weapons, it is not likely that the Red Army would have taken Western Europe.


Patton: A Genius for War by Carlo D'Este

Strongest Power always has a symapthy for a defeated or weaker power which would provide help for them to counter the power which challenged their strongest status. And a weaker power would never posed a threat to the strongest power.
If in 1941, USSR was completely conquered by Hitler. And Hitler's Nazi Germany became a real self-sufficient superpower. She also enough land and natural resources for a competition with US for world mastery.
With the whole of Europe and USSR, Hitler would have Baku, Gronzy, Maikop oilfields in Russia, Nagykanizsa oilfield in Hungary, Ploesti oilfield in Romania, Manganese ore in Nikopol(Ukraine) and Chiatura(Georgian), Iron ore in Lorraine (France), Kriog Rog (Ukraine), Kursk (Russia), Trepca Lead ore and Bor copper ore in Yuglosavia, Petsamo Nickel ore in Finland, also rich coal desposit in German homeland and Donbass area in Ukraine and many many other resouces. Not only did Hitler can build a stronger Heer but also stronger navy and Luftwaffe which would posed a threat to USA and even conquered USA. Were Patton or other US generals still on good terms with German ? German also killed many Russian during 1941-45.

If in 1945, when Nazi Germany conquered USSR, and she became a superpower. Patton or other US people would begin to symapathy with Russian people and began to hate the German because right now German, was direct threat to US and US would begin to recruit every Russian or other non-German people to fight against Nazi Germany and it would be a cold war between USA and Nazi Germany. At this time, US is busy reequipping 26 Russian tank divisions to fight against German.

[Kelvin]

It was US/British air power that destroyed German war factories and Fuel sources that allowed the Red Army to advance as it did. Also the Russian military was heavily supplied with Allied fuel , food, arms, (Winchester, Singer Sewing Machine company, Rock-Ola Juke Box machine company, Remington, Springfield, GE, Westinghouse) and many other American companies produced Rifles, Pistols, and ammunition for the Russian effort.

US would be glad that Russia survived in war and not to be conquered by Hitler in 1941. With stronger industral bases, adequate Russian natural resources and excellent German war making capability and superior individual German soldiers' fighting qualities, Hitler's Germany was more fearful than Stalin 's Russia. Victory of German Army in Russia in 1941 also meant the defeat of Britain and USA inevitable in the near future.

Russia bore the brunt of fighting in war. US did supply Russia greatly and kept Russia in war and when you think Russian was collapsed, Hitler would have 100 more divisions for campaign against US and Britain. US support of Russia practisely supported herself in survivial when she faced Hitler's German Army was most killing machine in that ceutury.

In June 1944, what Patton and other US Generals faced were 58 German divisions, 10 of which were formidable Panzer or PanzerGrenadier Divisions, but others were second class infantry divisions, which did not have any First Wave Regular Division in its OOB and most of infantry divisions were static, without any mobile capability. And in Italian battlefield in June 1944, also only two were First Wave Infantry divisions : 34.infanterie division and Reich-Grenadier Division Hoch und Deutshcemeister and also 1 Panzer and 4 PanzerGrenadier Divisions and two elite Fallachirmjager divisions and elite 5.Gebirgs Division.

But in Russia, most of German First Wave and Second Wave infantry divisions were deployed there. and 60 % Panzer /PanzerGrenadier divisions were depolyed in the East too. Also most of Tiger Abteilung were also in the East.

US would be glad to use money to bolster up Russian to keep fighting German and saved their own people lives in million.