German troops to suffer twice in Russian winter

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ISU-152
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German troops to suffer twice in Russian winter

Post by ISU-152 » 31 Jan 2003 13:28

Why the Wehrmacht soldiers having suffered so much in 1941 near Moscow because of the unprepared clothing and fuel still suffer the same near Stalingrad in 1942? I want your opinions on this matter. Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 31 Jan 2003 13:47

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Why the Wehrmacht soldiers having suffered so much in 1941 near Moscow because of the unprepared clothing and fuel still suffer the same near Stalingrad in 1942? I want your opinions on this matter. Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei
Basically because the 6th Army was cut off. As far as I know, troops on other sections of the front did not suffer from lack of winter clothing that winter.

cheers

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Dennis Redler
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German troops to suffer twice

Post by Dennis Redler » 31 Jan 2003 16:16

I also heard it was the coldest winter ever recorded up untill that time.
Dennis Redler

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 31 Jan 2003 20:18

Qvist wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the Wehrmacht soldiers having suffered so much in 1941 near Moscow because of the unprepared clothing and fuel still suffer the same near Stalingrad in 1942? I want your opinions on this matter. Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei
Basically because the 6th Army was cut off. As far as I know, troops on other sections of the front did not suffer from lack of winter clothing that winter.

cheers
Stalingrad stategic offensive began on November 19th - it is already quite cold by that time.

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Napoli
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Re: German troops to suffer twice in Russian winter

Post by Napoli » 01 Feb 2003 11:44

ISU-152 wrote: Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei
I think it may be the first one ISU. There is no other reason. Italians not any different either in the same case.

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Post by Panzermahn » 01 Feb 2003 14:22

Why the Wehrmacht soldiers having suffered so much in 1941 near Moscow because of the unprepared clothing and fuel still suffer the same near Stalingrad in 1942? I want your opinions on this matter. Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei

Oh really, ask the Russian Bolsheviks do they break the lines of the German 4th Army during the Battle of Moscow under the command of General Gotthard Heinrici, the most brilliant and acknowledge master of defensive battles that not even one of the Russian generals came close to his level..

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Post by Sokol » 01 Feb 2003 18:22

Yes Panzermahn, keep bowing to your idols. None measured up to your German master of defensive warfare? How about Chuikov?

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Post by Sokol » 01 Feb 2003 18:27

Panzermahn, it is also a sad, sad thing that you continue to use the word Bolshevik in conjuction with the word Russian without even knowing what it means. In the context of Bolsheviks being the dominant Communist faction, then the two words also form an oxymoronic phrase. So, you fly off and find out what it means, and get back to me.

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Napoli
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Post by Napoli » 02 Feb 2003 01:52

panzermahn wrote:
Why the Wehrmacht soldiers having suffered so much in 1941 near Moscow because of the unprepared clothing and fuel still suffer the same near Stalingrad in 1942? I want your opinions on this matter. Is this grand stupidity of german command or over-confidence?

best regards,
Sergei

Oh really, ask the Russian Bolsheviks do they break the lines of the German 4th Army during the Battle of Moscow under the command of General Gotthard Heinrici, the most brilliant and acknowledge master of defensive battles that not even one of the Russian generals came close to his level..
What on earth has this got to do with this thread anyway?????? 8O

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 02 Feb 2003 04:10

Sergei,

It was over confidence by the Germans. Hitler said before operation Barbarossa that he will take the Soviet Union in 6 weeks! Qvist pointed out that the troops did not suffered from lack of winter clothing and i agree and it's still a myth today.

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Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 02 Feb 2003 05:39

sokol,

i didn't say chuikov is not good...what he did durin stalingrad is exceptional too...But between Chuikov and Heinrici, i would say Heinrici is the better one in defensive battles...Not just during th battle of Moscow that Heinrici performed against all the odds but during the battle of Seelowe Heights where Germany is in its dying throes, still he defied Zhukov for 3 days with whatever me and supplies he had

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 02 Feb 2003 12:20

True enough Oleg - you¨d think winter clothing would have been moved in by then. Still the kez to that question resides in whether there was a similar situation elsewhere I think. Does anzbody know%

cheers

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Napoli
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Post by Napoli » 02 Feb 2003 12:24

That would be true for '41, but the problems presented themselves again the following year. German and Italian officers basically begged for proper winter clothing but far from the area in Berlin and Rome, requests were constantly denied, and so was a victory also if that was at all posible.

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FormerSoldier
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Post by FormerSoldier » 02 Feb 2003 15:39

It was overconfidence by the Germans (Hitler and OKW), as the commanders in the Heer had all been against any Russian offensive from the start. Another mark of good generalship is knowing when something is stupid!

Also, that winter was indeed so cold that even the Russians couldn't fight in it.. During many periods in Stalingrad buildings were occupied by both German and Russian soldiers hiding out from the cold in a sort of truce... though not a real one.

ISU-152
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Post by ISU-152 » 04 Feb 2003 12:13

Qvist wrote:True enough Oleg - you¨d think winter clothing would have been moved in by then. Still the kez to that question resides in whether there was a similar situation elsewhere I think. Does anzbody know%

cheers
Speaking of November 19th, the start of Soviet offensive was very cold. There was a snow blizzard one would not see for more than 100 meters. Tanks had to be committed carefully not to smash supporting infantry. The aviation would not work in these conditions. So the question is basically not about surrounded troops of 6th Army but what the heck the superintendants of 6th Army were doing prior to encirclement? :roll: The cold weather in that part starts at early October.
The soviet troops fighting in the city had a proper attire as early as september. And they had it much rougher than the germans. I know the Italians and Romanians had lack of clothes, too.


best regards,
Sergei

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