? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

[Paul_Atreides]

I would like to clear some moments on number of the German army allocated against the USSR:

- Aggregate number of ground forces (Heer), air forces (LW) and navy forces (KM) respective;
- Number of Army Groups;
- Number of artillery (not only divisional one (10,5 and 15 cm howitzers and guns), but also mortars (5 and 8 cm), infantry guns (7,5 and 15 cm), AT guns (3,7/4,7/5 cm), AA Guns (2/3,7/8,8 cm), heavy one (above 15 cm);
- Number of trucks, cars and tractors respective.

[Michate]

no real answers, but:

Heer: look out for what Qvist has written on this here on this forum, there is no better authority.
Luftwaffe: probably impossible to establish an exact figure. What is clear is that the traditional Soviet figure of 1,200,000 is nuts, the best estimate, based on structural considerations would be IMHO half that figure.
bavy: basically the same, you also run into large problems how to distinguish e.g. navy personnel used against the Soviet Union from that of the large training forces (U-boats etc.) in the Baltic. I have seen a figure from late 41 which was as low as 14,000.

artillery: genuine artillery guns/howitzers: 7,146; not including infantry guns and mortars. Good luck finding figures for the latter types, you might spend years in BAMA sighting any remaining divisional records and then adding them up. Frankly said, I find the Soviet habit of lumping together large artillery guns with small infantry mortars into a single figure somewhere in the range between unsatisfying and absurd. Un upper ceiling for the figures can readily be found by looking at the figures for the complete inventory of the German army, which have been included in lots of books (Mueller-Hillebrand, Hahn, Schustereit, just to name a few).
motor vehicles: similar as with artillery. Gross figures are 500,000-600,000 even in primary sources (Halder "war diary", quartermaster general account), including tractors, vans and lorries, cars and motor bikes.

A general observation: IMHO it is overly naive to believe you can put the personnel and material factors into a table with two columns (German/axis - Soviet) and 5 or 6 lines (categories you mentioned).

[ljadw]

There is also Walther Post,who is giving some information on artillery in 'Unternehemen Barbarossa '

[Paul_Atreides]

no real answers, but:

Heer: look out for what Qvist has written on this here on this forum, there is no better authority.

I hope he will appear in this discussion.

Luftwaffe: probably impossible to establish an exact figure. What is clear is that the traditional Soviet figure of 1,200,000 is nuts, the best estimate, based on structural considerations would be IMHO half that figure.

Mikhail Meltyukhov has got 650 000 by calculated way.

bavy: basically the same, you also run into large problems how to distinguish e.g. navy personnel used against the Soviet Union from that of the large training forces (U-boats etc.) in the Baltic. I have seen a figure from late 41 which was as low as 14,000.

100 000 as above.

Frankly said, I find the Soviet habit of lumping together large artillery guns with small infantry mortars into a single figure somewhere in the range between unsatisfying and absurd.

Well, actually in Soviet historical books usually take into account 76-mm and more calibers.

An upper ceiling for the figures can readily be found by looking at the figures for the complete inventory of the German army, which have been included in lots of books (Mueller-Hillebrand, Hahn, Schustereit, just to name a few).

It's not that what I want as you understand.

A general observation: IMHO it is overly naive to believe you can put the personnel and material factors into a table with two columns (German/axis - Soviet) and 5 or 6 lines (categories you mentioned).

What interestingly I know number for every line for Soviet side, but German one full of blanks.

[Paul_Atreides]

There is also Walther Post,who is giving some information on artillery in 'Unternehemen Barbarossa '

What post?

[ljadw]

About artillery numbers :I have the following from 'Operation Barbarossa ;German Fast Facts ' ,I don't know if the figures are reliable .
AG North :3986 (28-6OO mm )(excluding coastal and rail guns and rocket systems )
: 738 AA guns (20-1O5 mm)(including all SP AA guns )
:3427 mortars (50-81 mm)
AG Centre:7764 (28-600 mm )(excluding coastal and railroad guns and rocket systems )
:1571 AA guns (20-105 mm )(including all SP AA guns )
:6452 mortars (50-81 mm )
AG South :5669 (28-600 mm )(excluding coastal and railroad guns and rocket systems )
:1281 AA guns (20-105 mm )(including all SP AA guns )
:4980 mortars (50-81 mm )
AOK 20 :6OO (28-600 mm)(excluding coastal and railroad guns and rocket systems )
:118 AA guns (20-105 mm) (including all SP AA guns )
:628 mortars (50 -81 mm)
OKH reserves :1686 (28-600 )(excluding coastal and railroad guns and rocket systems )
: 78 AA guns (including all SP AA guns )
:1593 mortars (50-81 mm )
I see that I forgot some thing :the first ones (28-600 mm )are artillery pieces ,but I think it is obvious .
Sadly enough,the author,Nigel Askey, is giving no sources .
Cheers

[ljadw]

Walter Post is the name of the author

[ljadw]

About the motor vehicles ,also from German fast facts :
AG N :122250
AG C:24178O
AG S :171760
AOK 20 :11900
OKH Reserves :29440
In these numbers are excluded :halftrack prime movers ,armoured cars and motorcycles
The problem is that all those figures are a mixture of Army and Luftwaffe,the same for personnel strength
AGN 698000
AGC 1298900
AGS 989500
AOK 20 89700
OKH Reserves 240100
In the OKH Reserves 2 + 5 PD are not included
Cheers

[Paul_Atreides]

About artillery numbers :I have the following from 'Operation Barbarossa ;German Fast Facts ' ,I don't know if the figures are reliable .

As I understand he just take number of weapons from TOE of divisions etc. and summed it up.

For example my calculation made 1,5 years ago

http://www.mediafire.com/?tmxy7m4udnw

[Paul_Atreides]

About the motor vehicles ,also from German fast facts :
AG N :122250
AG C:24178O
AG S :171760
AOK 20 :11900
OKH Reserves :29440
In these numbers are excluded :halftrack prime movers ,armoured cars and motorcycles

I think it includes motorcycles.

AGN 698000
AGC 1298900
AGS 989500
AOK 20 89700
OKH Reserves 240100
In the OKH Reserves 2 + 5 PD are not included
Cheers

In total 3 316 200. The number remembered the number in Müller-Hilledrand (3,3 mln) only for Heer against USSR including OKH reserves.

[ljadw]

About the motor vehicles ,also from German fast facts :
AG N :122250
AG C:24178O
AG S :171760
AOK 20 :11900
OKH Reserves :29440
In these numbers are excluded :halftrack prime movers ,armoured cars and motorcycles

I think it includes motorcycles.

AGN 698000
AGC 1298900
AGS 989500
AOK 20 89700
OKH Reserves 240100
In the OKH Reserves 2 + 5 PD are not included
Cheers

In total 3 316 200. The number remembered the number in Müller-Hilledrand (3,3 mln) only for Heer against USSR including OKH reserves.

No,it is a mixture :Army,Waffen SS and Luftwaffe Ground Forces ,but one can only guess how much Luftwaffe .
He is giving for AG N 29,for AGC 52 and for AG S 41 and for AOK 20 4 divisions + 1 brigade .For the OKH reserves 12 .
Total =138 .All the other sources are giving 153 (OKH reserves included ),that's why I referred to his reliability .
The reason why I cited from this source is that he was giving detailed information on artillery (mortars ),information you asked .
I did not giving his panzer numbers because his is not giving them ,he is only writing of Armoured Fighting Vehicles of all types (some 4500 )what's much to high for tanks ,the tank number is well known :some 3300 + 250 SG (Assault Guns )It is also possible,maybe probably that his numbers of artillery pieces and AA guns are a mixture of Army and Luftwaffe . The same for the motorvehicles .

[ljadw]

Most sources are giving 153 divisions with 3.3 million ;he is giving 138 divisions with 3.3 million ;the difference is probably the OKH reserves :12 divisions with 240000 and the 2 Panzer divisions,which he does not mention :12 +2 PD =300000 .His total =138 +12 +2 =152 with 3.3 million + 0.3 million =3.6 million ,of which 300000 Luftwaffe ground forces .Why 0.3 and not more ? I don't know .

[Paul_Atreides]

I did not giving his panzer numbers because his is not giving them ,he is only writing of Armoured Fighting Vehicles of all types (some 4500 )what's much to high for tanks ,the tank number is well known :some 3300 + 250 SG (Assault Guns )

AFV were almost 4 400. From them panzers (pz.divs incl. pionier btl, indep. pz.abt. and armored trains) - 3 820, SP sIG33 (in some pz.divs) - 24, PzJg I (in 8 PzJg Abt., 900 Lehr. Br., LSSAH) - 240, StuG III (in 11St. Abt., 5 St. Bat., ID(m) SS R, IR(m) GD, 900 Lehr. Br., LSSAH) - 294, 88mm Sfl (1./8 PzJg. Kp.) - 6.

[ljadw]

I did not giving his panzer numbers because his is not giving them ,he is only writing of Armoured Fighting Vehicles of all types (some 4500 )what's much to high for tanks ,the tank number is well known :some 3300 + 250 SG (Assault Guns )

AFV were almost 4 400. From them panzers (pz.divs incl. pionier btl, indep. pz.abt. and armored trains) - 3 820, SP sIG33 (in some pz.divs) - 24, PzJg I (in 8 PzJg Abt., 900 Lehr. Br., LSSAH) - 240, StuG III (in 11St. Abt., 5 St. Bat., ID(m) SS R, IR(m) GD, 900 Lehr. Br., LSSAH) - 294, 88mm Sfl (1./8 PzJg. Kp.) - 6.

The 3300 Pz are for the 17 PD only,forgot to add 2 independant tank batallins (150 Pz ) and 2+5 PD (350 Pz ) but those PD were only engaged in september .
For the strength:the basic is 115 + LSSAH +GD +Kampgruppe Nord =116. =2.5
You can add:6 security divisions + later 3 :strength :0,15 (my opinion:you should not ,because not engaged on the front;but it is only an opinion )
Than you have OKH reserves :28 =0.6
You can count all of them for 22 june.
Or only a part :16 ,the others were not operationel (dispersed over whole Europe and engaged later )
You can count also none of them .
Thus you have several options .
My choice (but it is only an opinion ):116 +16 =142 divisions for 22 june =2.85

[Qvist]

Kriegsmarine strengths for the East aren't often come by, perhaps unsurprisingly given that is was a very minor theater from the KM's point of view (Basically just the Baltic and some minor elements on the Black Sea and Danube, eventually- and as the Baltic Fleet was cooped up in Khronstadt behind a mine barrier, that isn't much). The earliest figure I think I have seen is 14,200, dating from December 1941 and referring simply to "Eingesetzte Einheiten gegen Sowjet-Russland 1941." Ditto for I Quarter 1942 was 9,000. This according to BA-MA RW6/535. I would suspect they did not count KM forces in Northern Norway as deployed against the Soviet Union, since they mostly weren't.

I don't believe I've seen a detailed equipment overview for the Ostheer in June 1941. Just figures for the whole Feldheer.

Overall Luftwaffe strength in June 1941 was somewhat less than 1.5 million - including the Luftwaffe equivalent of the training army, parachute forces and the air defence system in Germany and Western Europe.

cheers