? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

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Qvist
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Qvist » 04 Nov 2009 22:37

Really? Thanks, I'll need to correct that.

cheers

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Paul_Atreides » 05 Nov 2009 03:42

Qvist wrote:Really?
Yes. :D

One more little request. Can you bring strength of AG Center (2, 4, 9 A, 2 Pz.A, 3, 4 Pz.Gr.) in November and December 41?
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Paul_Atreides » 05 Nov 2009 04:00

Qvist wrote:Yes, the FHO figures quoted in DRZW 5/2.
What is FHO?
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 05 Nov 2009 07:08

FHO =Fremde Heere Ost :literally :foreing armies i the east ;section of the OKH with as mission to gather information about the armies of the SU ,Poland,Czechoslovakia ,etc .Head in 1942 the well-known general Gehlen;FHO was no part of the Abwehr,who did depend of the OKW . There was also a Fremde Heere West .

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 05 Nov 2009 07:15

The inability of FHO to inform the OKH that the SU was able to send immediately enormous reinforcements to the front ,due to a system of cadre divisions,was one of the main reasons of the failure of Barbarossa;the Germans were convinced that the Russian mobilisation would take time ,as in 1914 .

Art
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Art » 06 Nov 2009 15:33

Qvist wrote: Both. You come across figures for Ration strength or combat strength from the armies, but off the top of my head I do not think I have seen any Iststärke figures from this period.
I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple more questions? First, how and when "Iststarke" was introduced in the German reporting system? Were there any directives or instructions from, for example, the General Staff or its departments? The second: how were wounded and sick and medical facilities of armies and army groups registered, were they included in Iststake figures?

Michate
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Michate » 06 Nov 2009 16:43

Iststärke was already used in WW1. It was basically used to establish the strength of the field army.

Art
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Art » 06 Nov 2009 16:58

Ok, I didn't explain it quite clearly. From what Qvist wrote, I understand, that IS wasn't reported by army groups in 1941, but was reported later on. So I wonder when did this cange occured and why?

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Qvist
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Qvist » 06 Nov 2009 23:22

I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple more questions?
Have I ever minded? :)
First, how and when "Iststarke" was introduced in the German reporting system? Were there any directives or instructions from, for example, the General Staff or its departments? The second: how were wounded and sick and medical facilities of armies and army groups registered, were they included in Iststake figures?
It was a well-established strength term (I didn't know it actually dated back to WW I, thanks Michate), but during the early part of the war it seems to have just been used to determine the exact manpower strength of the Wehrmacht once a year. Besides by the medical officers, in the Truppenkrankennachweise. Its definition appears to have been in essence unchanging (the only change as far as I know being that from autumn 1943 it included sick and wounded to return within 8 weeks, rather than 6 as previously). There must certainly have been instructions, but I have never come across a document that accounts clearly for why it starts appearing fairly regularly from mid-1942. The definition of it can be found lots of places though. Second question: It wasn't a question of where, but when. :) As long as the soldier was expected to return within 6 (later 8) weeks, he stayed on the Iststärke. At least in principle. There was also a change in practice in fall 1943. Prior to that time, soldiers in Heeresgebiet (ie, army group) hospitals were evidently taken out of Iststärke if they were not initially expected to return within 6 weeks. According to this order, they would henceforth only be taken out of the Iststärke if and when they had spent 8 weeks in hospital without yet being recovered. You will appreciate the significance of this for the resulting figures. The reason why this was important was that going off Iststärke also meant that you passed out of the Field Army and ceased to belong to your unit for the duration of your convalescence. In principle, you would then return to your unit (and administratively, to the Field Army) as part of a Genesene-Marscheinheit. Once that happened however, there was a significant chance of being diverted elsewhere, as Genesene were often drawn upon for experienced cadres for new formations and so on. As long as you were on the Ist, you still belonged to your unit, and return to it was automatic.
when did this cange occured and why?
Good questions. I wish I was able to answer them better than I can. Mid-42, to judge from the reports you see. But it doesn't just suddenly start appearing everywhere, there is still a lot of variation. Since I don't have a document explaining how and why, I can only speculate, but the obvious reason seems to me that it was an already familiar strength definition that filled a need that wasn't met by the previously common Verpflegungsstärke and Gefechtsstärke. Both in the sense that it provided a better and more reliable measure of general strength than either of those two (although it was far from ideal in that regard), and also in the sense that it responded (in this case more or less ideally) to the needs of manpower management. In essence, it provides the number of soldiers belonging to the unit, whether they are present or not.

cheers

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by H@wkeye! » 20 Nov 2009 01:32

Hi all

Sadly i can't post my graph, but after adding it all to excel and graphing the destroyed, replaced and produced in the period of Barbarossa 1941 (ie. July-Dec) i've discovered a few things. 1. They were still producing Pz I in 1941, why? 2. Panzer II production stood at 1025 in this period, wtf? This tank had already proven to be, well useless in battle... 3. in all cases, Pz I-IV all replacesments were far less then destroyed tanks, where did these tanks go, in particular the Pz II?...

Also, was wondering if anyone had these stats for the 1942 period and anyone have the stats for other ostheer equipment, arty trucks etc during this period?

I'll graph the man power stats later on, and see if i can't find a way to post them... gosh i love graphs

Cheers

Hawk

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by bf109 emil » 14 Jan 2010 10:43

Pz I-IV all replacesments were far less then destroyed tanks, where did these tanks go, in particular the Pz II?...

Also, was wondering if anyone had these stats for the 1942 period and anyone have the stats for other ostheer equipment, arty trucks etc during this period?
good site for Panzer II and variants and production numbershttp://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-ii.htm

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