Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

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Felix C
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by Felix C » 18 Mar 2012 01:53

Kilgore Trout wrote:For "Felix C":

Your concern seems to be primarily with Generals of divisions. There, I agree the overwhelming majority of German generals seemed to perform at least competently. But what is the real reason behind the sacking of von Bock? Was it purely political, or due to a perceived error in how he led Heersgruppe Nord, and so did not seize Leningrad. Simlarly, on Von Kleist: was he sacked due to not seizing the Caucasus oil fields? As a specialist in organisational behaviour (industrial psychology), I see the problem as the way bureaucracies - whether governmental, private busniess, or the military - justify their acts. Often, the real reason is masked behind a concoction. Sometimes, sacking is given an operational reason when it was really a personality clash. Other times, it can be the opposite. Usually, the reason given will be self-serving to whomever caused the change, or to the organisation as a whole.
Well there were more division commanders than army or army group and that level of command would have a presumably lesser instance of political tainting.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 25 Mar 2012 09:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: von Bock - not Von Bock !!

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by Kilgore Trout » 18 Mar 2012 18:44

Actually, division generals would (mostly) be younger than higher-unit commanders. They would have more time in the Nazi education system and more susceptability to propaganda. That might make them MORE likely to have a "political tainting" E.g; Major Remer made a division commander due to his politically-motivated acts in favour of the regime on 20 July 1944. One of my wife's uncles was 22 when the war began and was an ardent Nazi, but her father (who was 35) and adoptive father - another uncle - (who was 39) when it began quite definitely were NOT.

Felix C
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by Felix C » 18 Mar 2012 19:02

Political tainting as in the relief was political.

RandJS
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by RandJS » 24 Mar 2012 11:24

Lt. Gen Wilhelm Richter was removed from command of 716 ID in September 1944 for being ineffective. Was reassigned as deputy commander of another division, then was retired in December 1944. Reassigned as commander of 14th Luftwaffe Field Division, in Norway, in February 1945.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by alkankizil@tr.net » 24 Mar 2012 19:47

Note: Gen.Lt. in the Wehrmacht ranking system corresponds to Major General in the British Army.

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 24 Mar 2012 23:42

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The hapless Ritter von Leeb & von Küchler ( although both lived well past 1945) proof of the Peter principal- effective divisional Generals who, arguably cost Germany the War in the East in 1941. Will start a summer thread on the rationale.
Briefly, if someone wants to run this, If Armee Group North had halted On the Narva river -Pskovskoye-Ilmen -Tver line, One complete armys would have been freed
for army group Central's push to Moscow. Young Markian Popov Lured them into the trap that won the war.
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Edit: thankyou, Dieter!
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 25 Mar 2012 07:44, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Ritter von Leeb and von Küchler - not Von Leeb & Von Kuchler

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by alkankizil@tr.net » 25 Mar 2012 08:45

So it was the divisional generals who were responsible for the German defeat in the East..! Could you explain this please+

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 25 Mar 2012 08:55

alkankizil@tr.net wrote:So it was the divisional generals who were responsible for the German defeat in the East..! Could you explain this please+
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Thanks,but I will need until summer to 'advance & defend!" :) In the mean time , map & the line & take a good look...

Markian Popov was 'rehabilitated by Zhukov' for some very good reasons...
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alkankizil@tr.net , its considered impolite to 'try to shark the question" in on line discussions. If you have a point to make, back it. Or expect to be ignored. :)

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by Kilgore Trout » 25 Mar 2012 16:44

Without getting to deep in detail, I disagree wholly with "waldzee." The reason the Axis lost in the East is explained by "If you don't know where you're going, any road can take you there." There was no definite strategy. It was all improvised. This made it very easy for the S.U. to adopt a "bend but don't break" defence, just like a football team. Hitler was like a kid in a candy store, twisintg this way then that, lured by this shiny prize then that. In trying to have it all at once, he ended up with none.
As Napoleon's experience showed, merely taking Moscow would never have "won the war."

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by alkankizil@tr.net » 25 Mar 2012 17:14

Waldzee: "its considered impolite to 'try to shark the question" in on line discussions. If you have a point to make, back it. Or expect to be ignored. "

I only asked a simple question that is all... No need to be offensive. As for you ignoring my question I could't care less..!

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 25 Mar 2012 19:44

Kilgore Trout wrote:Without getting to deep in detail, I disagree wholly with "waldzee." The reason the Axis lost in the East is explained by "If you don't know where you're going, any road can take you there." There was no definite strategy. It was all improvised. This made it very easy for the S.U. to adopt a "bend but don't break" defence, just like a football team. Hitler was like a kid in a candy store, twisintg this way then that, lured by this shiny prize then that. In trying to have it all at once, he ended up with none.
As Napoleon's experience showed, merely taking Moscow would never have "won the war."
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thanks kilgore- busy times, need until summer to start a definitive post on this & defend with references. You may
want to look into von Küchler's denied request toi pull bck to the Luga.
We are , i feel, actually in agreement.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 20 Apr 2012 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: von Küchler - not von Kuchler

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by Kilgore Trout » 25 Mar 2012 19:54

I shall eagerly await your summer submission!

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 26 Mar 2012 00:13

alkankizil@tr.net wrote:Waldzee: "its considered impolite to 'try to shark the question" in on line discussions. If you have a point to make, back it. Or expect to be ignored. "

I only asked a simple question that is all... No need to be offensive. As for you ignoring my question I could't care less..!
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Duly noted. As http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_and_the_Goth shows too much Rhetoric frys debate... :lol:

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waldzee
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Operation Lüttich

Post by waldzee » 20 Apr 2012 16:14

There is an open thread on von Kluge's decisions at Mortain and Falaise, which rate a topic in themselves...
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 20 Apr 2012 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Lüttich - not Luttich; von Kluge - not Von Kludge;

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 21 Apr 2012 01:23

Felix C wrote:
Leerhöy wrote:
Felix C wrote:The only near example I can think of is how General Feuchtinger handling of his unit in the immediate Normany landings. I do not believe he was relieved for poor performance.
Hello Felix,

What do you have in mind, regarding Feuchtingers handling of 21. Pz.Div. on D-Day?

Regards

Kim
I was reading recently on both the U.S. and British Commonwealth armies and note how poorly the senior generals considered so many of their division and corp commanders to include also army commanders. I rarely ever read regarding poor performance of German generals. I have read about the 21. Pz.Div. being indecisively led in the critical Normany hours by Feuchtinger and, now that I have time to reflect on the topic a bit, Rommel relieved Streich the 5. leichte Division commander, for poor performance in North Africa.

Regarding the 21. Pz.Div. in particular, that the probes toward the beachead were weak and defeated in detail rather than using strong a single stroke. Now, that is what I read and have not seen a topo map with dispositions nor timetable.
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Von Manstein was promoted above his competence when he was given command of Army Group Don. On Nov 24/ 1942 he advised Paulus not to break out of Stalingrad- an order he reversed in three weeks.

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