Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

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waldzee
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 16 May 2012 02:39

steverodgers801 wrote:The initial airlift study was based on having a very short period of time and having transports available that ended up in Italy. Only Göring thought it was doable and he never checked with his staff before making the promise.
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Can we include Reichsmarschall Göring in our slacker review? :lol:
Actually, the entire staff of OKW becomes more suspect . There was a ‘belief’ that the Communist Stravka,& young Zukov, could not prepare a massive strategic trap for sixth army.- which they did.
Prudent doctrine would be to hold at the unfinished Volga -Don canal, a ready made tank ditch, & let the troop build up in Stalingrad forage
This blocks the Volga , allows Army group South to take Baku. BTW, what were the German names for Konnaja & Sashi Chekalina airfields?
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 16 May 2012 08:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Göring - not Goering !!

rendulic
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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 06:35

waldzee wrote:

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Can we include Field Marshall Göring in our slacker review? :lol:
Actually, the entire staff of OKW becomes more suspect . There was a ‘belief’ that the Communist Stravka,& young Zukov, could not prepare a massive strategic trap for sixth army.- which they did.
Prudent doctrine would be to hold at the unfinished Volga -Don canal, a ready made tank ditch, & let the troop build up in Stalingrad forage
This blocks the Volga , allows Army group South to take Baku. BTW, what were the German names for Konnaja & Sashi Chekalina airfields?
The OKH was in charge of the eastern front, not the OKW. And there were two Amygroups. Armygroup A went for the Caucasian.
Even Hitler was aware of the danger of a long flank.
Anyway, the chief of staff Franz Halder certainly did not want an advance to the Caucasus as long the situation near Stalingrad was not cleared. The disagreements with Hitler on this subject led to Halder being sent to the Führerreserve.
Going for the Caucasus and trying to effectively take Stalingrad at the same time was the real eror and that was Hitler's decision against the advice of his senior military adviser.
The real issue was that any advance south was dangerous as long as the red army forces near Stalingrad were not decisively beaten and destroyed.
Last edited by rendulic on 16 May 2012 06:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 06:36

steverodgers801 wrote:The initial airlift study was based on having a very short period of time and having transports available that ended up in Italy. Only Göring thought it was doable and he never checked with his staff before making the promise.
Göring was simply bluffing. Those in charge knew better.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 06:47

steverodgers801 wrote:Paulus should have been relieved. Its hard to judge since the relationship with Hitler was so important. In contrast Ernst King CNO was known for always being in a rage and was difficult to get along with, yet his performance allowed him to stay in.
Paulus was far from incompetent. He had the reputation of being a brilliant staff officer but he lacked the decisiveness which he needed to decide to execute the attack toward the relief force when Manstein had ordered this.
It was risky but there was no other option and here Paulus failed.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 16 May 2012 11:11

rendulic wrote:
steverodgers801 wrote:Paulus should have been relieved. Its hard to judge since the relationship with Hitler was so important. In contrast Ernst King CNO was known for always being in a rage and was difficult to get along with, yet his performance allowed him to stay in.
Paulus was far from incompetent. He had the reputation of being a brilliant staff officer but he lacked the decisiveness which he needed to decide to execute the attack toward the relief force when Manstein had ordered this.
It was risky but there was no other option and here Paulus failed.
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I believe you hahve been on this board before,( different name) & we argued this point.
Correct: its OKH>
Paulus didn’t ‘fail’- he was given an impossible assignment into World War two’s biggest ‘trap’, & was out generaled by Zhukov.
He had a very good post 1942 career rebuilding the NVA . Harldy a ‘failure’.
:)

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 16 May 2012 11:59

rendulic wrote:
waldzee wrote:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can we include Field Marshall Göring in our slacker review? :lol:
Actually, the entire staff of OKW becomes more suspect . There was a ‘belief’ that the Communist Stravka,& young Zukov, could not prepare a massive strategic trap for sixth army.- which they did.
Prudent doctrine would be to hold at the unfinished Volga -Don canal, a ready made tank ditch, & let the troop build up in Stalingrad forage
This blocks the Volga , allows Army group South to take Baku. BTW, what were the German names for Konnaja & Sashi Chekalina airfields?
The OKH was in charge of the eastern front, not the OKW. And there were two Amygroups. Armygroup A went for the Caucasian.
Even Hitler was aware of the danger of a long flank.
Anyway, the chief of staff Franz Halder certainly did not want an advance to the Caucasus as long the situation near Stalingrad was not cleared. The disagreements with Hitler on this subject led to Halder being sent to the Führerreserve.
Going for the Caucasus and trying to effectively take Stalingrad at the same time was the real eror and that was Hitler's decision against the advice of his senior military adviser.
The real issue was that any advance south was dangerous as long as the red army forces near Stalingrad were not decisively beaten and destroyed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gregor Zhukov is perhaps the most underestimated general in history. Its time you shed the 'Prussian superiority myth".
The German attack at Stalingrad didn’t ‘protect the flank’- the flank was exposed.
I suggest you look upthe route of the Volga Don canal.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by ljadw » 16 May 2012 12:42

Both attacks were necessary,supporting each other,and,both had to succeed at the same time,in a very short period.And,both failed in the same period:in the summer .
All depended on the possibility of both AG's to destroy the opponent forces immediately after the start of Blau and to prevent their withdrawal to the Volga/Caucasus .
Both AG's failed to achieve this .

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 14:05

waldzee wrote:
rendulic wrote:
steverodgers801 wrote:Paulus should have been relieved. Its hard to judge since the relationship with Hitler was so important. In contrast Ernst King CNO was known for always being in a rage and was difficult to get along with, yet his performance allowed him to stay in.
Paulus was far from incompetent. He had the reputation of being a brilliant staff officer but he lacked the decisiveness which he needed to decide to execute the attack toward the relief force when Manstein had ordered this.
It was risky but there was no other option and here Paulus failed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Correct: its OKH>
Paulus didn’t ‘fail’- he was given an impossible assignment into World War two’s biggest ‘trap’, & was out generaled by Zhukov.
He had a very good post 1942 career rebuilding the NVA . Harldy a ‘failure’.
:)
Paulus was not in charge of the campaign as such so it was not possible that he was outgeneralled by Zhukov. As an army commander he had a particular part to perform within the campaign and did that satisfactorily. When 6th army got surrounded he lacked decisiveness.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 14:11

ljadw wrote:Both attacks were necessary,supporting each other,and,both had to succeed at the same time,in a very short period.And,both failed in the same period:in the summer .
All depended on the possibility of both AG's to destroy the opponent forces immediately after the start of Blau and to prevent their withdrawal to the Volga/Caucasus .
Both AG's failed to achieve this .
You are parrotting Hitler here and you are also misunderstanding the geography of the campaign. The campaign was to be done in stages and Stalingrad was not even to be taken. There could be no question of going south before the red army was decisively beaten and that was not the case. Fanatically trying to take Stalingrad and going south at the same time was a mistake. There were no sufficient forces to do both. Halder and Hitler disagreed over this.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 14:20

waldzee wrote:
rendulic wrote:
waldzee wrote:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can we include Field Marshall Göring in our slacker review? :lol:
Actually, the entire staff of OKW becomes more suspect . There was a ‘belief’ that the Communist Stravka,& young Zukov, could not prepare a massive strategic trap for sixth army.- which they did.
Prudent doctrine would be to hold at the unfinished Volga -Don canal, a ready made tank ditch, & let the troop build up in Stalingrad forage
This blocks the Volga , allows Army group South to take Baku. BTW, what were the German names for Konnaja & Sashi Chekalina airfields?
The OKH was in charge of the eastern front, not the OKW. And there were two Amygroups. Armygroup A went for the Caucasian.
Even Hitler was aware of the danger of a long flank.
Anyway, the chief of staff Franz Halder certainly did not want an advance to the Caucasus as long the situation near Stalingrad was not cleared. The disagreements with Hitler on this subject led to Halder being sent to the Führerreserve.
Going for the Caucasus and trying to effectively take Stalingrad at the same time was the real eror and that was Hitler's decision against the advice of his senior military adviser.
The real issue was that any advance south was dangerous as long as the red army forces near Stalingrad were not decisively beaten and destroyed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gregor Zhukov is perhaps the most underestimated general in history. Its time you shed the 'Prussian superiority myth".
The German attack at Stalingrad didn’t ‘protect the flank’- the flank was exposed.
I suggest you look upthe route of the Volga Don canal.
Zhukov has never been underestimated. He had his failures.Even the counteroffensive that got 6th army surrounded lacked boldness.
The high capability of german commanders is not a myth. It is fact.
The not beating of the red army forces in the north has nothing to do with the effort to take the city of Stalingrad.
It is not about them not having gotten surrounded and destroyed during the advance towards the general area of Stalingrad.
Take away the effort to take the city of Stalingrad and the whole symbolism about it and 6th army does not get surround.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by steverodgers801 » 16 May 2012 18:59

face it the German army was out generaled at Stalingrad, Kursk, Bargaration and others.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 20:05

steverodgers801 wrote:face it the German army was out generaled at Stalingrad, Kursk, Bargaration and others.
If you are implying that the red army showed a qualitative superiority in those instances, you would be wrong. By the time of Bagration the red army had reached the level of the german army where operations were concerned but lowlevel tactics remained too much based on mass which caused huge losses.
Stalingrad would not have happened without Hitlers obsession for it. The counteroffensive would have been much more bolder if executed by a Manstein or a Guderian. At Kursk the red army knew where the german attack was coming and still lost a multiple of the german losses which is not the expected result in such a situation.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by waldzee » 16 May 2012 20:48

rendulic wrote:
steverodgers801 wrote:face it the German army was out generaled at Stalingrad, Kursk, Bargaration and others.
If you are implying that the red army showed a qualitative superiority in those instances, you would be wrong. By the time of Bagration the red army had reached the level of the german army where operations were concerned but lowlevel tactics remained too much based on mass which caused huge losses.
Stalingrad would not have happened without Hitlers obsession for it. The counteroffensive would have been much more bolder if executed by a Manstein or a Guderian. At Kursk the red army knew where the german attack was coming and still lost a multiple of the german losses which is not the expected result in such a situation.
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We await your explanation of Ivanov's breakthrough on the Romanian Front with 'Bated Breath" :P

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by rendulic » 16 May 2012 22:05

waldzee wrote:
rendulic wrote:
steverodgers801 wrote:face it the German army was out generaled at Stalingrad, Kursk, Bargaration and others.
If you are implying that the red army showed a qualitative superiority in those instances, you would be wrong. By the time of Bagration the red army had reached the level of the german army where operations were concerned but lowlevel tactics remained too much based on mass which caused huge losses.
Stalingrad would not have happened without Hitlers obsession for it. The counteroffensive would have been much more bolder if executed by a Manstein or a Guderian. At Kursk the red army knew where the german attack was coming and still lost a multiple of the german losses which is not the expected result in such a situation.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We await your explanation of Ivanov's breakthrough on the Romanian Front with 'Bated Breath" :P
You are not making much sense with this statement.

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Re: Unsatisfactory performance from Germans generals?

Post by steverodgers801 » 17 May 2012 00:41

At Stalingrad the German generals dismissed the ability of the Soviets to launch a coordinated counterattack. At Kursk, the German generals again underestimated Soviet capacity for an offense and it was Model who help convince Hitler the Soviets were going to attack in the south in 1944 and therefore received all but one of the available Pzr div.

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