Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

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Dieter Zinke
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Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Dieter Zinke » 26 May 2012 16:01

[Split from "What is this in Speer's hand?"]


Martinski wrote:Hello!

This picture is taken in FHQu "Werwolf" and dates from 06 - 09 March 1943. The picture published here is a typical "corrected" one; check my pic as attached.

Hitler had regular meetings with Albert Speer to discuss all kind of items regarding industry, armament, construction etc. During this meeting, the "800,000 - men Program" was discussed.

I am the author of a very exhaustive book on FHQu "Werwolf" (to be published soon).

Regards - Martin



Please have a look at
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf_(F ... ptquartier)

To avoid your blggest mistake !!! The name is Werwolf - not Wehrwolf

Dieter Z.

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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 28 May 2012 23:40

Dear Dieter!!!

To avoid YOUR biggest mistake... the CORRECT spelling (as ordered by A. Hitler himself on July 16th 1942) is indeed WEHRWOLF (with 'H').

But, as a kind of early "uprising" against Hitler, the OKH (under Gen. Franz Halder) stubbornly kept using the codename "Werwolf" (which can be found in the KTB - OKH). So, in fact they used both names without difference, although the only CORRECT and choosen one was "WEHRWOLF".

Sources:
Bundesarchiv - KTB Kommandant FHQu (at that time by Oberstlt. Thomas) - RSD - Gruppe "OST" archives 1941 - 1943.

Never knew that "Wikipedia" was a reliablie source...!!!??? Better avoid it!

PS: I'm writing you this comment directly from the former FHQu "Wehrwolf" - We made this picture especially dedicated to Prof. Franz W. Seidler, you also should read his book! On the pic I'm sitting left; to the right is Mr Andrew Shvachko, my co-author from Kiev and highly specialized in German and Russian concrete fortifications. We are sitting directly on the foundations of A. Hitler's bunker (6.5 x 6.5 m). Destroyed by explosions by German engineers upon the command of December 28th 1943. The scattered walls and roof fragments are lying until 46 m (complete wall with 2.5m thickness) around these foundations.

Greetings from "Wehrwolf" - Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Dieter Zinke » 30 May 2012 11:00

Sehr geehrter Wehrwolf !

Well, I do know the saying: Never try to stop a rolling stone!

But I have a small experience as a researcher for now nearly sixty years !!
I’m also responsible as a (co)author for publishing about 7.000 pages.

Very strangely - over all the years I never saw “Wehrwolf”
(with the exception as “Wehrwolf. Bund deutscher Männer und Frontkrieger“ in the Republic of Weimar, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrwolf_(Wehrverband) )

From my point of view this makes sense because “Wehrwolf“ is not existing as a definition in the german linguistic usage !!
In contrast “Werwolf” is an established term with a linguistic deduction from the Middle High German. “wera”(Germanic) is “man”. See therefore http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Werwolf
And Hitlers petname (for example used by Winifred Wagner) was ”Wolf” - certainly as a man and surely not as a member of a “Wehrverband”.

In conclusion: How do you interpret the fact, that Percy Ernst Schramm, officer in charge of the Kriegstagebuch (war log) des OKW himself wrote on page 1869 of “Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht 1944-1945, Bd. 8, Bernhard & Graefe, München 1982” also “Werwolf” (see my pic).

In the result: I do sustain my constructive criticism

Dr. Dieter Zinke
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 31 May 2012 21:08

Hello Dieter!

Thanks for your helpful explanations! But before repeating this German etymology again to my and keep “the stone rolling” you should teach this lesson to some of your country fellows as well.

In the excellent book by Franz W. Seidler – Dieter Zeigert: “Die Führerhauptquartiere” - Page 222:

“In einem Areal acht Kilometer nördlich von Winniza und östlich der Straße nach Schitomir war seit November 1941 an Quartieren für Hitler und seinen Arbeitsstab, für das OKH, den Führungsstab der Luftwaffe, den Reichsführer SS, den Reichsminister Dr. Lammers und den Reichsaußenminister gebaut worden. Die Bauten für Hitler und die Feldstaffel des Wehrmachtführungsstabes liefen unter den Tarnnamen »Wehrwolf« und »Wald«.

Hitler legte die Schreibweise des Wortes »Wehrwolf« persönlich fest.319 Der Platz für Wehrwolf war vom Chefadjutanten der Wehrmacht, Generalmajor Schmundt, erkundet worden. Seine Wahl fiel auf das Waldstück nördlich Winniza unter anderem deshalb, weil dort eine größere Leitungsspinne vorhanden war, die die rasche fernmeldetechnische Anbindung des Führerhauptquartiers als Befehlszentrale ermöglichte.”

The books by Percy Ernst Schramm are also in my huge library. Believe me, I want all the way in order to check the SPELLING first – BEFORE making my point here in this Forum. I knew that this issue was ready to be discussed.

I told you earlier: the initial spelling (KTB – Kommandant FHQu – RSD – Gruppe OST files etc.) do state the inital spelling “WEHRWOLF”. As I told you already, the OKH, located in their HQ in the town of Winniza, kept using the spelling “WERWOLF” in a stubborn way.

I do own ALL copies of the RSD (GFP – Gruppe OST) (about 5,000 pages from November 1941 – September 1943) which fell in the hands of the Red Army at the liberation of Winniza in March 1944. I did read them ALL in German (as the NKVD translated ALL pages in Russian from 1947 – 1949 – I do own the Russian translations as well...)

I will publish tomorrow (I have my flight back to Brussels) some copies of their files where you will see (for the first time, as you indicated) the spelling “WEHRWOLF”.

So, also the guys from the RSD need a posteriori a lesson in German Etymology...!?!

Another argument: some time ago I acquired an original transportation case for an “Enigma” de/encoding machine. The case is still in its original colours and bears the inscription (see photo):

“Deutsche Wehrmacht Führungsstab Wehrwolf” (so WITH '-h')

Keep tuned – I will open a separate thread to start some explanations, photos and finds from the FHQu “Wehrwolf”...

Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 01 Jun 2012 06:22

Dieter hello!

I went through some of my files this night and can give you some more semantic examples. But, on the other hand you're of course right because in most of the former Wehrmacht sources (memories, biographies etc.) a lot of people keep using the spelling "WERWOLF" you'd prefer.

Just some examples; just to show that I'm not alone in this case....

Neil Short - “The Führer's Headquarters” - Page 50
In April 1942 Hitler issued the directive for Operation Blau (Blue), and on 28 June the first phase of the operation was launched. Soon thereafter (16 July) Hitler and his staff moved to FHQ Wehrwolf.


Uhlich Werner - Deutsche Decknahmen des Zweiten Weltkrieges – Page 286
Wehrwolf Füherhauptquartier - Waldlager etwa 15 km nordöstlich von Winniza in der Ukraine an der Straße nach Shitomir. Betonbunker und mehrere Block­häuser. Aufenthalt Hitlers vom 16. 7.-30. 10. 42 und vom 19. 2.-13. 3. 43. Lit.: 3, 26, 114, 126, 176

Neumärker - Conrad - Woywodt – Wolfsschanze – Page 101
Führerfeldhauptquartier »Wehrwolf«
Als offensichtlich geworden war, daß der Kampf gegen die Sowjetunion kein Blitzkrieg werden würde, hatten am 17. November 1941 in einem Wald 15 Kilometer nörd­lich des ukrainischen Städtchens Winniza erste Erkun­dungen für ein weiteres Hauptquartier im Osten statt­gefunden; Deckname »Eichenhain«. Für den 4. März 1942 vermerkte das Kriegstagebuch des Führerhaupt­quartiers dann bereits: »Acht Uhr fliegt Kommandant mit Adjutant, Generalmajor Schmundt und Oberbaurat Dr. Henne zu den neuen Anlagen im Osten.«M »Eichen­hain« wurde durch eine weitere Anlage, »Bärenhöhle« bei Pleskau nahe dem Peipussee, ergänzt.'"
( Auf ausdrücklichen Wunsch Hitlers mußte die Bezeichnung „Werwolf" mit ,,h" geschrieben werden. Sehr. v. Herrn Otto Wien (früher WFSt) v. 8. 11. 72 an den Dir. d. Bibl. f. Zeitgeschichte. Auch ausdrücklicher Hinweis in Lit. 126 Bd. III, 1 S. 183, sowie Lit, 176 S. 342)

Domarus Max - Hitler - Reden - Band 4 – Page 1906
Führerhauptquartier, 20. August 1942. Der Führer Adolf Hitler."
Außer Schlegelberger hatte Hitler zugleich auch Thierack im Hauptquartier „Wehrwolf" empfangen 2).

Baxter Ian - Hitlers Headquarters 1939 – 1945 – Page 73
At 'Wehrwolf Security Zone I and II were only a few hundred yards from each other in the open woodland.

And there are many more! So - I'll stay put with the spelling "WEHRWOLF" - WITH '-h'

Greetings from former FHQu "Wehrwolf" - Martin

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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by nondescript handle » 02 Jun 2012 23:05

Dieter Zinke wrote:[...]From my point of view this makes sense because “Wehrwolf“ is not existing as a definition in the german linguistic usage !!
In contrast “Werwolf” is an established term with a linguistic deduction from the Middle High German. “wera”(Germanic) is “man”. [...]


I don't know enough to make any factual input, but from a purely linguistic perspective I would think it made actually more sense to name a guerrilla/resistance group after the Hermann Löns novel (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Wehrwolf) about a guerrilla/resistance group, than naming it after a mythical lycanthrope.

Regards
Mark

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a Werewolf of London

Post by waldzee » 03 Jun 2012 00:08

Remains a perfectly proper English - Lycantrope

err- lycanthrope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf
Albanian - an "Oik"
Just one more good reason to convert the fora to Albanian.. :lol:
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Jun 2012 02:02

I don't know enough to make any factual input, but from a purely linguistic perspective I would think it made actually more sense to name a guerrilla/resistance group after the Hermann Löns novel (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Wehrwolf) about a guerrilla/resistance group, than naming it after a mythical lycanthrope


Personally speaking - given that the Werwolves were ideally to be "embedded" in the civilian population and only active when required...naming them after a creature with a transitory nature, from A to B and back to A again, makes perfect sense! :wink:
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 03 Jun 2012 09:35

That's correct! I am pretty sure that Adolf Hitler named these FHQu after the book by Hermann Löns: "Der Wehrwolf"... The novel was written in 1910 but was very popular in the Third Reich years. I do own two editions: 1921 and 1944.

And indeed, Löns use the word "WEHRWOLF" - non-existing in the German language according to some colleagues on the Forum...

Attached the 1944 edition....

Martin
PS: so I definitely stay put with the "WEHRWOLF" - spelling WITH '-h'
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by waldzee » 03 Jun 2012 22:16

[++++++++++
back on topic, Wehrwolf is a cognate that became an accepted spelling, as 'Wehr' is Lom's peasant hero who turns peasant farmers into warrriors. Language is rarely static.
You say tomato, I say tomaato...

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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by waldzee » 06 Jun 2012 04:28

waldzee wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
I don't know enough to make any factual input, but from a purely linguistic perspective I would think it made actually more sense to name a guerrilla/resistance group after the Hermann Löns novel (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Wehrwolf) about a guerrilla/resistance group, than naming it after a mythical lycanthrope


Personally speaking - given that the Werwolves were ideally to be "embedded" in the civilian population and only active when required...naming them after a creature with a transitory nature, from A to B and back to A again, makes perfect sense! :wink:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
True- "war wolf' has some better connotations than 'changeling' :lol:

To compare, "Hun" was humourous when der Kaiser coined it in 1900

A genuine British Wehrwolf in Wartime China:

http://www.psywarrior.com/JapanPSYOPWW2b.html

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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 01 Jul 2012 21:48

Dieter Zinke wrote:Sehr geehrter Wehrwolf !

Well, I do know the saying: Never try to stop a rolling stone!

But I have a small experience as a researcher for now nearly sixty years !!
I’m also responsible as a (co)author for publishing about 7.000 pages.

Very strangely - over all the years I never saw “Wehrwolf”
(with the exception as “Wehrwolf. Bund deutscher Männer und Frontkrieger“ in the Republic of Weimar, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrwolf_(Wehrverband) )

From my point of view this makes sense because “Wehrwolf“ is not existing as a definition in the german linguistic usage !!
In contrast “Werwolf” is an established term with a linguistic deduction from the Middle High German. “wera”(Germanic) is “man”. See therefore http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Werwolf
And Hitlers petname (for example used by Winifred Wagner) was ”Wolf” - certainly as a man and surely not as a member of a “Wehrverband”.

In conclusion: How do you interpret the fact, that Percy Ernst Schramm, officer in charge of the Kriegstagebuch (war log) des OKW himself wrote on page 1869 of “Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht 1944-1945, Bd. 8, Bernhard & Graefe, München 1982” also “Werwolf” (see my pic).

In the result: I do sustain my constructive criticism

Dr. Dieter Zinke



Dear Dr. Dieter Zinke!

In reply to your quote about the Percy Ernst Schramm, officer in charge of the Kriegstagebuch (war log)! I guess you didn't went through all of them, because in the SAME set of books, namely in Band III1 and Band III2 (1943), the author (Walther Hubatsch) makes use of the CORRECT codename: "Wehrwolf" (WITH '-h')... See e.g. pages 207.

Also on page 1650 "Verzeichnis der Decknamen" -the correct denomination "Wehrwolf" is used (see my pic).

In the result: I do definitely stay put and do NOT make as what was called by you: "my biggest mistake"!

Regards - Martin M Bogaert
author - historian
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Dieter Zinke » 01 Jul 2012 22:43

Finally try
Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf via google.de
and you will get only and instead of that circa 4600 hits for
Führerhauptquartier Werwolf.

Why should I surrender ?

All the best

Dieter Z.

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Adolph or Adolf?

Post by waldzee » 02 Jul 2012 00:50

Hitler or Hiedler?

I suspect that 'wehrwolf" is a reversed language transplant. German is 'resistant' to new words, unlike Quebce 'argot' & other Creole dialects
that do not have a supporting academy of language
War wolf as opposed to changling appeaqrs to have crossed the language placenta
BTW
You will love the southern states, Dieter.

Kozy Kabuns -home style kookin!
Motown! :lol:
http://thewondrous.com/25-ridiculous-misspelled-signs/
mite az wel zurrender Dieter!
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=66232

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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?

Post by Martinski » 03 Jul 2012 12:58

Why try "google.de"??? In internet you can prove anything, especially when people make their own websites and "encyclopediae". The fact that there are 4600 hits for that word is IMO NO proof at all, rather the contrary.

Also never tried to convince people and to use the word "surrender" is a bit over the top. As I promised, I show here two of the nearly 5.000 original documents found in March 1944 at the liberation of Winniza by the NKVD. These documents came out of the office of the RSD on-site.

I went through all of them, got them in chronological order (I guess they were all thrown on a heap and someone tried to destroy them by fire - but failed) and catalogized them. They offer a wealth of information, starting from 1.11.1941 and ending on 20.9.1943. Nobody in the West ever saw these files!

Two documents to show you the spelling how it was used in ORIGINAL documents:

- KTB d OKW - Band III1: "Der Führer fliegt in Begleitung des Chefs WFSt und des Chefs des GenStdH über Winniza nach Saporoshje ins HQu. der H.Gr. Don. Der Chef OKW und der WFSt bleiben in „Wolfsschanze" (vgl. 13. 3.)." As Hitler arrived from Saporoshje in the FHQu "Wehrwolf" - all administrative and security measures were restarted. The first doument shows "Tagesbefehl Nr. 1" from February 20th 1943 as given by the Kommandant FHQu - signed by Oberstleutnant Streve;

- A document about the security and guards, written and signed by SS-Ustuf. Danner to his direct superior, SS-Oberführer Rattenhuber.

I marked both documents as an example.

@ our colleague Waltsee from Kalgory Alberto: thanks for your support and funny posts.

Martin
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