German estimates of soviet losses ?

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a.j.m.
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German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by a.j.m. » 20 Nov 2012 14:22

Greetings to all.

I`m searching for data of soviet army losses according to german estimates (FHO,OKH and so on).
Does anyone know such estimates (especially killed and died of wounds) per years or for the whole war ?

In literature, I found following figures :
by March 1942 - 1.5 Mio killed, 4 Mio POWs, 4 Mio wounded (according to FHO-OKH)
by July 1942 - 10 Mio (from W.Model`s appeal T312 R307) - probably all combat losses (KIA,WIA,POWs)
by summer 1943 - 11 Mio (killed,POWs, and wounded not fit for the service anymore) - according to Manstein and OKH

Is there any such estimates by the end of 1943, 1944 or spring 1945 ?

paspartoo
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by paspartoo » 20 Nov 2012 17:22

Gehlen's memoirs have his estimates. In page 64 it says that Soviet losses (dead,disabled or taken prisoner) were 7.530.000 up to May '42.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
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a.j.m.
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by a.j.m. » 21 Nov 2012 11:28

Thanks paspartoo ! But does it include losses in May or not ? "Disabled" are wounded not fit for the service ?

And which were estimates for 1943 and 1944 - that`s especially interesting to me.

paspartoo
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by paspartoo » 21 Nov 2012 13:08

a.j.m. wrote: does it include losses in May or not ? "Disabled" are wounded not fit for the service ?
In both cases i am not sure of what Gehlen means.
a.j.m. wrote:And which were estimates for 1943 and 1944 - that`s especially interesting to me.
I'm not sure this information is in the memoirs but i will check.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

thom
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by thom » 24 Nov 2012 00:13

The latest FHO estimate I know is for the time until January 1945 - 5.509 million killed, 20.214 million wounded (13.130 million of them returning to duty). Other FHO estimates speak about 5.3 million killed and 2.235 million who died from wounds until October 1944.

a.j.m.
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by a.j.m. » 24 Nov 2012 14:59

Thanks a lot,thom !
It`s interesting to compare these figures with Krivosheev.
It is come out, that the most big difference between them comes from wounded and died of wounds.
A figure of died of wounds in 2,5 times differs from Krivosheev, whereas difference for killed and POWs is only 1,2-1,3 times or lower.
This is rather surprisingly for me.
Btw,could you explain - how (on what basis) these estimates was made?
Was it army`s claims after some correction, or something yet ?

thom
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by thom » 26 Nov 2012 20:58

FHO estimated Soviet losses based on the German casualties multiplied by an assumed factor which would reflect the intensity of fighting in the sectors of the different Army groups. For example, in January 1945, the calculation was done by applying a 6:1 factor to the losses of Army group South, 4:1 to both A and Center, and 5:1 to North. All four Army groups together reported 26144 killed and 120546 wounded in that month, resulting in Soviet losses of 118704 killed and 550946 wounded. The number of wounded who returned to duty was estimated as 65% of the total wounded.

paspartoo
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by paspartoo » 27 Nov 2012 08:41

a.j.m. wrote:Btw,could you explain - how (on what basis) these estimates was made?
Was it army`s claims after some correction, or something yet ?
I don't know how they estimated enemy losses but i assume that they used several sources of information for that task. One of those must have been radio-intelligence, specifically the preformatted reports sent every few days by Soviet units detailing their strength and losses in that period.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

ljadw
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by ljadw » 27 Nov 2012 12:18

IMHO,the FHO estimates of the Soviet losses were only guesses,not much better than the Soviet claims about German losses.

Art
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by Art » 27 Nov 2012 20:43

Somewhat better. According to the Sov. General staff by 22 October 1942 Germany and allies lost 9 330 thousands men on the Eastern Front: 3 188 thous. killed, 6 122 thous. wounded and 20 thous. prisoners.

ljadw
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by ljadw » 28 Nov 2012 12:46

Yes,somewhat :P

terge
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by terge » 28 Nov 2012 21:28

Estimating Soviet losses today. You can get a brief picture of Soviet losses in a given battel, based on the Soviet estimate og german losses. When Soviet comander should estimate German losses they put the number according to their own losses and i belive, often a bit higher. So if a Soviet report say example that the Germans lost xx xxx dead in the battel around yyyyyy, you can rely on that the Soviet losses would be close to that given number. - It makes Soviet history look better and the exagerations will usualy cause no problem. With one big exeption!!! The myth of the great tank battle at Prochorowka. The myth stems from 5 guard armys wery high tank losses on 12th july. They likewise reported the same number of German tanks destroyd. Historians looking at the official documents have therefor seen in the papers wath must be evidence of a great armourd clash. German documents have not been consulted or dismissed. Staff documents 4. Pz.army, the Panzer return number for 12 july is 12 panzers more than on the evening of 11. july. Meaning that on 12 july 4. Pz.army got more panzers back from repairshops than lost or damaged that wery day.
The reason for the high Soviet losses opposed to neglibel German losses are today not entierly clear. Two likely reasons is that Luftwaffe did away with moest of the Soviet armour that day. Also that the Soviet tanks when racing to close in with the german tanks, they ran into the ss infanerie, causing heavy casualties for both. ( The ss infanterie fought the Soviet tanks in close combat with magnetic mines etc.

To sum up. It is entierly correct that the Soviet estimated German casualties relative and matching their own. It was probably dangerous to report fewer German casualties than your self had suffered.
About reasons for the myth of prokhorowka, Zetterling and someone tells about the ss infanterie. The Luftwaffe storie i found in a Norwegian millitary history monthly.

Still sorry for bad spelling. Bad schooling is a mistake that stick for a while. Please tell your children this, and my effort will not have come to nothing. Thanks and regards Terje

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Big Yehudah
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by Big Yehudah » 11 Jul 2014 13:32

i realize this topic is old but I am specifically interested in it, German estimates of Soviet Losses. Specifically OKW/OKH/FHO since they are somewhat vetted, attempting to get an accurate picture and not a single tanker who may or may not be inflated his kills for his own aggrandizement. Can anyone post sources, preferably freely available but anything would be helpful.

ljadw
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by ljadw » 11 Jul 2014 14:52

I don't think you will find estimates about human losses(besides,why would these be needed),what exist are German CLAIMS about POW (and they were not very reliable).

Estimates about material losses are available : see the Soviet economy and the Red Army P 118.

paspartoo
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Re: German estimates of soviet losses ?

Post by paspartoo » 12 Jul 2014 09:17

Big Yehudah wrote:i realize this topic is old but I am specifically interested in it, German estimates of Soviet Losses. Specifically OKW/OKH/FHO since they are somewhat vetted, attempting to get an accurate picture and not a single tanker who may or may not be inflated his kills for his own aggrandizement. Can anyone post sources, preferably freely available but anything would be helpful.
For soviet armor losses in the period 1941-44 they estimated 70.366:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2 ... front.html

According to Krivosheev's 'Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century', it was actually 82.900.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

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