If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 28 Dec 2017 10:12

Higham wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Higham wrote:Given that we all agree none of us actually want to help Hitler.....

1. Defeat Britain. And only then turn on Russia.

A defeated Britain means Hitler could focus all his resources on crushing Russia. The US doesn’t enter the war in Europe. Without US supplies and without Britain fighting, Moscow falls before winter in 1941.
US supplies and British fighting had no influence on the outcome of the war in the east in 1941.

There were more British supplies than US supplies arriving in the east in 1941.

There is no proof that the fall of Moscow in 1941 before the winter would result in the defeat of the SU .
Unfortunately, you are missing the point of this thread. There is no proof of anything. That’s the problem with this theorising.

But in 1941, the Russians were being crushed by the Nazis. It’s only later, when US supplies are arriving en masse, that Russia is able to benefit. So, yes, I get your point. I didn’t phrase that sentence well.

And yes, given the theorising, Moscow would have probably fallen in 1941. German troops were already ivo Moscow at that point. If Britain had been subdued, Germany would have had more resources to project their power deeper into Russia.

Battle of Britain was the turning point. Stalingrad, for all its ferocity, changed nothing.
1)It is not so that in 1941 the Russians were crushed; besides,the aim of the Germans was not to crush the Russians, it was to defeat the SU

2 ) Moscow would not have fallen in the autumn/winter of 1941, and the fall of Moscow would not be important

3) It is not so that the fall of Britain would have increased the strength of the Ostheer : it is the opposite . In june 1941,when Britain was still fighting, the Germans had 152 divisions available for Barbarossa;56 other divisions were tied elsewhere .Let's imagine a defeat of Britain before june 1941,this would mean the occupation of Britain, which would claim an additional 20 divisions + LW and KM units . Thus not 152 but 132 divisions only would be available for Barbarossa .

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 28 Dec 2017 10:26

Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
The decisive change was a non military one : it was the declaration of the British government in june 1940 that it would continue the war ;this means that Germany had lost . It was not the BoB : Germany winning the BoB does not make Sealion a success .

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 28 Dec 2017 22:53

ljadw wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
The decisive change was a non military one : it was the declaration of the British government in june 1940 that it would continue the war ;this means that Germany had lost . It was not the BoB : Germany winning the BoB does not make Sealion a success .

No it just meant the failure of Hitler's gamble [trade empire for ignoring Europe] -but that was never going to work anyway. The real turning point was Moscow 1941.From that point on Hitler quadrupled the threat facing him with no end in sight.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 29 Dec 2017 00:53

Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
For kindergarten the passage will descend. For school it's too late. All the same. Discussion Britain, Moscow, Stalingrad, but there is no evidence of a situation at the front. Did Germany really use its capabilities to the fullest. Was there an opportunity to take Moscow in 1942. What mistakes were made in the offensive in the south. Halder's diary for help, there is written the creativity of Hitler. That is, your conclusions are based on a small amount of information.
In a neighboring topic, you criticized me for "Brazilian threads", but here you show the level of the kindergarten. So primitive are the discussions and conclusions. Even interesting, how is this possible?

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 29 Dec 2017 22:26

Still don't follow the rhetoric.

I was not directing Brazil & war at you but the fascination some have.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 30 Dec 2017 17:17

The beginning of the end of the Red Army could become Barbarossa-2 in 1942. But Hitler's plans for the year 42 were absolutely fantastic. Two of the three groups of armies 70% of the Wehrmacht did not advance.Even more fantastic is the absence of objection from the German generals. How they allowed Hitler to deal with such matters, for me it remains a mystery.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 30 Dec 2017 17:50

For comparison, January-May 1945, all the Soviet fronts are attacking. The troops have infantry, artillery. Army groups "Center" and "North" in 1942 were inactive.

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German soldiers 1939 - 1945 unite Europe

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WW2ARCHIVER
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by WW2ARCHIVER » 30 Dec 2017 20:21

Hitler should be killed in the first worldwar.
WW2 Archiver - private scrapbooks of German soldiers now to view for everyone who is interested.

Join my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCakQx5 ... subscriber

Higham
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Higham » 31 Dec 2017 00:04

Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
Um, sorry, Stalingrad was ultimately meaningless. It was the defeat, in the field, of a German army. Was it still possible for the Nazis to beat the Soviet Union. Yes.

Was it possible for the Nazis to win the war? No. Because the US had entered the war. Therefore, from a Grand Strategic, Strategic and Operational perspective, the war was lost.

The Battle of Britain forced Hitler to fight on 2 fronts. It prevented Hitler from throwing all his resources at the Soviets. But it also allowed for US intervention in Europe.

The Soviets and their apologists in the West have very cleverly manipulated the issue to give Stalingrad undue import.

Even Von Rundstedt agreed: the Battle of Britain was the crucial point of the war.

And let’s go one step further: the Battle of Britain was the most important battle in Westen civilisation in the past 1000 years. Because it was the clash between good and evil and that’s not pure hyperbole.

Chew over that ;)

Higham
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Higham » 31 Dec 2017 00:06

ljadw wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
The decisive change was a non military one : it was the declaration of the British government in june 1940 that it would continue the war ;this means that Germany had lost . It was not the BoB : Germany winning the BoB does not make Sealion a success .
Disagree, with out the RAF, the RN would have been overwhelmed by the Luftwaffe. Care to discuss further?

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 31 Dec 2017 00:47

jesk wrote:The beginning of the end of the Red Army could become Barbarossa-2 in 1942. But Hitler's plans for the year 42 were absolutely fantastic. Two of the three groups of armies 70% of the Wehrmacht did not advance.Even more fantastic is the absence of objection from the German generals. How they allowed Hitler to deal with such matters, for me it remains a mystery.
The main panzer generals were sacked after the failure @ Moscow in dec1941. Further the main reason only part of the army undertook offensive in 1942 was lack of fuel to conduct such a lengthy operation and munitions stock piles not replenished by then.

Hitler's war was not designed for continuous operations and campaign, that would have required total war economy.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 31 Dec 2017 00:52

Higham wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
Um, sorry, Stalingrad was ultimately meaningless. It was the defeat, in the field, of a German army. Was it still possible for the Nazis to beat the Soviet Union. Yes.

Was it possible for the Nazis to win the war? No. Because the US had entered the war. Therefore, from a Grand Strategic, Strategic and Operational perspective, the war was lost.

The Battle of Britain forced Hitler to fight on 2 fronts. It prevented Hitler from throwing all his resources at the Soviets. But it also allowed for US intervention in Europe.

The Soviets and their apologists in the West have very cleverly manipulated the issue to give Stalingrad undue import.

Even Von Rundstedt agreed: the Battle of Britain was the crucial point of the war.

And let’s go one step further: the Battle of Britain was the most important battle in Westen civilisation in the past 1000 years. Because it was the clash between good and evil and that’s not pure hyperbole.

Chew over that ;)
What an ego!
now we see the danger in revisionist history.

Hitler's only chance to defeat USSR was in 1942/43, after that he had not the stockpiles of fuel/munitions weapons and troops to do any thjing more than strategic defence.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 31 Dec 2017 09:44

Higham wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:BoB was maybe the beginning of the change and was a ray of hope, but the first major change was the 1941 failure of the Wehrmacht to reach Moscow and the Red Army drove them back. That was the first time the Wehrmacht was defeated and America entered the war. Stalingrad was critical because it showed the RED ARMY could eventually win if they were willing to suffer enough causalities....the race was on.

This was the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht.
The decisive change was a non military one : it was the declaration of the British government in june 1940 that it would continue the war ;this means that Germany had lost . It was not the BoB : Germany winning the BoB does not make Sealion a success .
Disagree, with out the RAF, the RN would have been overwhelmed by the Luftwaffe. Care to discuss further?
Your knowledge of Sealion is very limited : the KM had the means to disembark only the manpower of a brigade and these troops would be eliminated already on the first day .

The LW had not the means ,and could not have them, for air superiority on the coasts of Southeast England .

Stalingrad ? It was not critical : a German victory and occupation of Stalingrad would have changed nothing .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 15:21

WW2ARCHIVER wrote:Hitler should be killed in the first worldwar.
It's impossible. Without Germany's defeat in the war, Europe would never have united. Fate kept him for a great mission. Hitler lost, Europe won.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 15:26

Higham wrote: Um, sorry, Stalingrad was ultimately meaningless. It was the defeat, in the field, of a German army. Was it still possible for the Nazis to beat the Soviet Union. Yes.

Was it possible for the Nazis to win the war? No. Because the US had entered the war. Therefore, from a Grand Strategic, Strategic and Operational perspective, the war was lost.
Manstein proposed to attach Kursk in March, Hitler forbade him. Manstein insisted on the evacuation of Taman, where 20 divisions remained idle. Again, Hitler has forbidden. Nothing was lost, except for one problem - Hitler at the head of Germany.

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