If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 16:57

Paul Lakowski wrote:
The main panzer generals were sacked after the failure @ Moscow in dec1941.
228 thousand frostbitten. Most of the equipment failed at -10 -15. Weapon lubrication freezes. Simply, the Wehrmacht was not ready for the winter campaign.

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Further the main reason only part of the army undertook offensive in 1942 was lack of fuel to conduct such a lengthy operation and munitions stock piles not replenished by then.

Hitler's war was not designed for continuous operations and campaign, that would have required total war economy.
Logic is wrong. The Wehrmacht had enough fuel and ammunition for the war in the USSR, Italy, France. Large-scale submarine war. FAA rockets.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 31 Dec 2017 17:18

jesk wrote: 228 thousand frostbitten. Most of the equipment failed at -10 -15.

Simply, the Wehrmacht was not ready for the winter campaign.
1) Wrong: most of the equipment did not fail at -10-15 :if most of the equipment failed, the Soviets would be in Berlin at the end of the winter .


2) Wrong : 228000 frostbitten is less than 10 % of the more than 3 million Germans who fought during the winter : More than 90 % of the Ostheer did not suffer from frostbite, because they had adequate clothing .

There is only a relative relation between frostbite and winter equipment : winter equipment does not exclude frostbite : a lot of the frostbite victims had winter equipment /clothing ,but, if they didn't have winter clothing/equipment, they would not suffer from frostbite, but they would be dead .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 17:46

ljadw wrote:
jesk wrote: 228 thousand frostbitten. Most of the equipment failed at -10 -15.

Simply, the Wehrmacht was not ready for the winter campaign.
1) Wrong: most of the equipment did not fail at -10-15 :if most of the equipment failed, the Soviets would be in Berlin at the end of the winter .
In Wehrmacht there were horses, soldiers. All this was at war. Russians have been cruelly beaten in summer - autumn fights. Opportunities it wasn't serious to develop success even in light of the known problems with climate.
2) Wrong : 228000 frostbitten is less than 10 % of the more than 3 million Germans who fought during the winter : More than 90 % of the Ostheer did not suffer from frostbite, because they had adequate clothing .
They froze too, but have managed not to freeze extremities.
There is only a relative relation between frostbite and winter equipment : winter equipment does not exclude frostbite : a lot of the frostbite victims had winter equipment /clothing ,but, if they didn't have winter clothing/equipment, they would not suffer from frostbite, but they would be dead .
Captured in December 1941. There are no winter clothes, they are alive. To them it is just a little cold. :)

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retreating Germans

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 18:01

Taken captive near Maloyaroslavets. Time of shooting 11/28/1941 Russian in winter clothes, Germans not on a season.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 18:14

1.1 million Soviet attacked 1.7 million Germans and achieved success. With such a balance of forces and means, the Soviet victory is no more than a misunderstanding.

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ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 31 Dec 2017 18:17

Germans captured in december while not wearing winter clothes,proves that they did not need winterclothes .

The aim of winter clothes is to limit the number of freezings, not the number of POWs.

Thus your pictures are own-goals .

If it is very cold, no freezings (more than 90 % of the Ostheer ) mean winter clothes, but freezings do not mean no winterclothing .

And why would the Germans need winter clothes on november 28 ? Russian winter does not start on november 28 .

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 31 Dec 2017 18:18

jesk wrote:1.1 million Soviet attacked 1.7 million Germans and achieved success. With such a balance of forces and means, the Soviet victory is no more than a misunderstanding.

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Wrong figures from the Soviet period and wrong conclusion : on the average, the Soviet winter offensive was a failure .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 18:23

ljadw wrote:Germans captured in december while not wearing winter clothes,proves that they did not need winterclothes .

The aim of winter clothes is to limit the number of freezings, not the number of POWs.

Thus your pictures are own-goals .

If it is very cold, no freezings (more than 90 % of the Ostheer ) mean winter clothes, but freezings do not mean no winterclothing .

And why would the Germans need winter clothes on november 28 ? Russian winter does not start on november 28 .
Do you have a New Year mood? :) Already write tricks.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 31 Dec 2017 18:46

Paul Lakowski wrote:
jesk wrote:
The main panzer generals were sacked after the failure @ Moscow in dec1941.
This does not mean : because the failure to capture Moscow .

Guderian and Hoeppner were fired at the request of Kluge because they retreated without informing Kluge .

Other panzer generals as Kleist and Hoth were not fired .

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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 31 Dec 2017 19:14

Hitler's trousers after the July 20 explosion. Modern Europe in them has grown.

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jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Jan 2018 10:07

How Hitler could win the war. It's impossible, to be so stupid. The history of the Second World War is a gigantic sabotage. Hundreds and hundreds of erroneous decisions of Hitler. The Germans fought wrong!

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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Boby » 01 Jan 2018 16:54

jesk wrote:How Hitler could win the war. It's impossible, to be so stupid. The history of the Second World War is a gigantic sabotage. Hundreds and hundreds of erroneous decisions of Hitler. The Germans fought wrong!
List them all. 8-)

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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Jan 2018 20:33

1. Creation of an equivalent of general army - tank group, for the principle divide and rule. Hitler opposed the interests of tanks to infantry.

2. have rejected Marx's plan in favor of Barbarossa. 3 groups of armies on east front for creation of the interest conflict between them and sabotage are formed.

3. Dunkirk

4. On June 25, 1941 have ordered to create 2 coppers near Volkovysk and Minsk. Von Bock planned to come to Smolensk. Russians have received more time for concentration of reserves. Germans could break in parts quicker.

5. the order to surround Leningrad instead of his capture

6. On June 26 have stopped the 56th tank corps of Manstein on Dvina, under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks. Russians have received time for strengthening of defense near Leningrad

7. have forbidden blow to Leningrad from the South. The tank corps went east along the tank of inaccessible terrain.

8. For a month have stopped approach of 41 tank corps in the direction of Leningrad under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks

9. have ordered to attack 18 armies Estonia, instead of blocking. Blow force to Leningrad has been weakened

10. have divided the troops attacking Leningrad into 3 groups, due to the lack of maneuver the blow on each site has been weakened

11. have forbidden to take Kiev in July

12. have rejected von Bok's offer to take Moscow in July

13. have rejected Halder's plan to take Moscow in August

14. have ordered to create the Umansky copper, instead of blow to the North of Ukraine

15. have ordered to take the Crimea, blow force to the Caucasus has been weakened

16. have turned the 2nd tank group of Guderian to Kiev

17. have forbidden to block Leningrad blow through Neva. have thought up blow to Tikhvin

18. have forbidden preparation for army for war in the winter. Under the pretext of influence of such preparation on mralny spirit of army. War has to be won till winter.

19.Narrow ring of an environment near Vyazma. Von Bock planned to close pincers to the east.

20. have ordered to surround the Bryansk front, have stretched the front of offensive at Moscow. Time of advance has to the east increased.

21.The stop order in December, 1941, the front line was stretched with a conclusion of large forces in inaction

22. have dismissed many generals under the pretext of their fault for defeats.

23. On December 19 have personally headed overland army

24. On December 5 have made the order in 1942 to attack the Caucasus. have brought 2 groups of armies in inaction.

About errors of 1942-1945 later :)

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Ironmachine
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Ironmachine » 01 Jan 2018 20:59

You are still at least 176 erroneous decisions short of "hundreds". For hundreds and hundreds, you would need to list what... another 376 at least? :)
And then you can begin to prove that those were indeed erroneous decisions.

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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 01 Jan 2018 21:06

jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:Germans captured in december while not wearing winter clothes,proves that they did not need winterclothes .

The aim of winter clothes is to limit the number of freezings, not the number of POWs.

Thus your pictures are own-goals .

If it is very cold, no freezings (more than 90 % of the Ostheer ) mean winter clothes, but freezings do not mean no winterclothing .

And why would the Germans need winter clothes on november 28 ? Russian winter does not start on november 28 .
Do you have a New Year mood? :) Already write tricks.
You have published a photo of German s taken POW, photo made AFTER they became POW, and now you claim that they they had no winterclothing when they surrendered . :P

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