If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 01 Jan 2018 21:10

jesk wrote:1. Creation of an equivalent of general army - tank group, for the principle divide and rule. Hitler opposed the interests of tanks to infantry.

2. have rejected Marx's plan in favor of Barbarossa. 3 groups of armies on east front for creation of the interest conflict between them and sabotage are formed.

3. Dunkirk

4. On June 25, 1941 have ordered to create 2 coppers near Volkovysk and Minsk. Von Bock planned to come to Smolensk. Russians have received more time for concentration of reserves. Germans could break in parts quicker.

5. the order to surround Leningrad instead of his capture

6. On June 26 have stopped the 56th tank corps of Manstein on Dvina, under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks. Russians have received time for strengthening of defense near Leningrad

7. have forbidden blow to Leningrad from the South. The tank corps went east along the tank of inaccessible terrain.

8. For a month have stopped approach of 41 tank corps in the direction of Leningrad under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks

9. have ordered to attack 18 armies Estonia, instead of blocking. Blow force to Leningrad has been weakened

10. have divided the troops attacking Leningrad into 3 groups, due to the lack of maneuver the blow on each site has been weakened

11. have forbidden to take Kiev in July

12. have rejected von Bok's offer to take Moscow in July

13. have rejected Halder's plan to take Moscow in August

14. have ordered to create the Umansky copper, instead of blow to the North of Ukraine

15. have ordered to take the Crimea, blow force to the Caucasus has been weakened

16. have turned the 2nd tank group of Guderian to Kiev

17. have forbidden to block Leningrad blow through Neva. have thought up blow to Tikhvin

18. have forbidden preparation for army for war in the winter. Under the pretext of influence of such preparation on mralny spirit of army. War has to be won till winter.

19.Narrow ring of an environment near Vyazma. Von Bock planned to close pincers to the east.

20. have ordered to surround the Bryansk front, have stretched the front of offensive at Moscow. Time of advance has to the east increased.

21.The stop order in December, 1941, the front line was stretched with a conclusion of large forces in inaction

22. have dismissed many generals under the pretext of their fault for defeats.

23. On December 19 have personally headed overland army

24. On December 5 have made the order in 1942 to attack the Caucasus. have brought 2 groups of armies in inaction.

About errors of 1942-1945 later :)
3 and 18 have been proven not to be erroneous decisions ,because these decisions did not exist .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Jan 2018 21:15

Ironmachine wrote:You are still at least 176 erroneous decisions short of "hundreds". For hundreds and hundreds, you would need to list what... another 376 at least? :)
And then you can begin to prove that those were indeed erroneous decisions.
376 can and will. I listed the errors at the army level and above. There were still a lot of tactical mistakes. For example, July 2, 1941 Hitler orders to destroy the enemy at the edge of the forest!

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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Jan 2018 21:17

ljadw wrote:
You have published a photo of German s taken POW, photo made AFTER they became POW, and now you claim that they they had no winterclothing when they surrendered . :P
In the network there are a lot of photos of soldiers of the Wehrmacht in November-December 1941 without due to the season of winter clothes.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 01 Jan 2018 21:18

ljadw wrote:
jesk wrote:1. Creation of an equivalent of general army - tank group, for the principle divide and rule. Hitler opposed the interests of tanks to infantry.

2. have rejected Marx's plan in favor of Barbarossa. 3 groups of armies on east front for creation of the interest conflict between them and sabotage are formed.

3. Dunkirk

4. On June 25, 1941 have ordered to create 2 coppers near Volkovysk and Minsk. Von Bock planned to come to Smolensk. Russians have received more time for concentration of reserves. Germans could break in parts quicker.

5. the order to surround Leningrad instead of his capture

6. On June 26 have stopped the 56th tank corps of Manstein on Dvina, under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks. Russians have received time for strengthening of defense near Leningrad

7. have forbidden blow to Leningrad from the South. The tank corps went east along the tank of inaccessible terrain.

8. For a month have stopped approach of 41 tank corps in the direction of Leningrad under the pretext of pulling up of forces on flanks

9. have ordered to attack 18 armies Estonia, instead of blocking. Blow force to Leningrad has been weakened

10. have divided the troops attacking Leningrad into 3 groups, due to the lack of maneuver the blow on each site has been weakened

11. have forbidden to take Kiev in July

12. have rejected von Bok's offer to take Moscow in July

13. have rejected Halder's plan to take Moscow in August

14. have ordered to create the Umansky copper, instead of blow to the North of Ukraine

15. have ordered to take the Crimea, blow force to the Caucasus has been weakened

16. have turned the 2nd tank group of Guderian to Kiev

17. have forbidden to block Leningrad blow through Neva. have thought up blow to Tikhvin

18. have forbidden preparation for army for war in the winter. Under the pretext of influence of such preparation on mralny spirit of army. War has to be won till winter.

19.Narrow ring of an environment near Vyazma. Von Bock planned to close pincers to the east.

20. have ordered to surround the Bryansk front, have stretched the front of offensive at Moscow. Time of advance has to the east increased.

21.The stop order in December, 1941, the front line was stretched with a conclusion of large forces in inaction

22. have dismissed many generals under the pretext of their fault for defeats.

23. On December 19 have personally headed overland army

24. On December 5 have made the order in 1942 to attack the Caucasus. have brought 2 groups of armies in inaction.

About errors of 1942-1945 later :)
3 and 18 have been proven not to be erroneous decisions ,because these decisions did not exist .
List them :o

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 01 Jan 2018 21:51

About 18 : at the end of november several trains with winter clothing were waiting to go to Russia (operation Bogen ) .

About 3 : see all the threads about Dunkirk .

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 01 Jan 2018 21:53

jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:
You have published a photo of German s taken POW, photo made AFTER they became POW, and now you claim that they they had no winterclothing when they surrendered . :P
In the network there are a lot of photos of soldiers of the Wehrmacht in November-December 1941 without due to the season of winter clothes.
Publish them .

Besides, these photos do not prove that the Ostheer had no winter clothing and that this was because the order of Hitler .

And, why would the Germans need winter clothing in november ?

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Jan 2018 00:29

ljadw wrote:About 18 : at the end of november several trains with winter clothing were waiting to go to Russia (operation Bogen ) .
Climate winter in Russia begins in November. And for example, in Yakutia in September. Even taking into account transport problems, winter clothes were not enough and at the beginning of the Russian winter could not deliver to the front.
About 3 : see all the threads about Dunkirk .
I participated in discussions. There, Hitler gave orders to the troops.
Publish them .
publish

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/brit ... uhrer.html
The horrific results of the lack of warm clothing were truly disgusting. The Italian journalist Curzio Malaparte recalled in his novel Kaputt how he had watched the German troops returning from the Eastern Front, and was in the Europeiski Café in Warsaw when "suddenly I was struck with horror and realised that they had no eyelids. I had already seen soldiers with lidless eyes, on the platform of the Minsk station a few days previously on my way from Smolensk.
"The ghastly cold of that winter had the strangest consequences. Thousands and thousands of soldiers had lost their limbs; thousands and thousands had their ears, their noses, their fingers and their sexual organs ripped off by the frost. Many had lost their hair… Many had lost their eyelids. Singed by the cold, the eyelid drops off like a piece of dead skin… Their future was only lunacy."

Besides, these photos do not prove that the Ostheer had no winter clothing and that this was because the order of Hitler .
Many indirect sources, a direct order to confirm at this time was not found, but the question of the war in the winter was not even discussed. It was supposed to win until winter with the withdrawal of most of the army from the USSR.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by Paul Lakowski » 02 Jan 2018 03:03

most of the explanations of such decisions have to do with fuel shortages, as this was several times more than expected given the terrible state of the road network, and lack of sufficient fuel.

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 02 Jan 2018 09:24

jesk wrote:
ljadw wrote:About 18 : at the end of november several trains with winter clothing were waiting to go to Russia (operation Bogen ) .
Climate winter in Russia begins in November. And for example, in Yakutia in September. Even taking into account transport problems, winter clothes were not enough and at the beginning of the Russian winter could not deliver to the front.
About 3 : see all the threads about Dunkirk .
I participated in discussions. There, Hitler gave orders to the troops.
Publish them .
publish

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/brit ... uhrer.html
The horrific results of the lack of warm clothing were truly disgusting. The Italian journalist Curzio Malaparte recalled in his novel Kaputt how he had watched the German troops returning from the Eastern Front, and was in the Europeiski Café in Warsaw when "suddenly I was struck with horror and realised that they had no eyelids. I had already seen soldiers with lidless eyes, on the platform of the Minsk station a few days previously on my way from Smolensk.
"The ghastly cold of that winter had the strangest consequences. Thousands and thousands of soldiers had lost their limbs; thousands and thousands had their ears, their noses, their fingers and their sexual organs ripped off by the frost. Many had lost their hair… Many had lost their eyelids. Singed by the cold, the eyelid drops off like a piece of dead skin… Their future was only lunacy."

Besides, these photos do not prove that the Ostheer had no winter clothing and that this was because the order of Hitler .
Many indirect sources, a direct order to confirm at this time was not found, but the question of the war in the winter was not even discussed. It was supposed to win until winter with the withdrawal of most of the army from the USSR.
Malaparte (source of Roberts) is talking nonsense : how could he know that thousands of soldiers had lost their limbs ? Did he count them , did he see from his café all those thousands of victims ?
And, he is wrong : frostbites were not caused by lack of winter clothing, but by the winter cold . Besides : from what period are dating the remarks of Malaparte ?

As there was no order of Hitler no to give the Ostheer winter clothing, one can not hold him responsible for the freezing losses.

There was no fighting in Yakutia, which is a part of Siberia .

While November was cold in some regions, the frostbite losses were very low, which indicates that november was not that cold and that most soldiers were able to protect themselves against the cold .

Roberts is also wrong when he refers to Napoleon : the winter of 1813 started very late, when most of the remainings of Napoleon's army had left Russia.

If Roberts is repeating the Napoleon propaganda that the defeat in Russia was caused by the winter, one can give him up as a serious historian .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Jan 2018 12:36

Paul Lakowski wrote:most of the explanations of such decisions have to do with fuel shortages, as this was several times more than expected given the terrible state of the road network, and lack of sufficient fuel.
This is not an analysis, a fantasy on the topic of history. Again write something that seems logical to you.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Jan 2018 12:42

ljadw wrote: Malaparte (source of Roberts) is talking nonsense : how could he know that thousands of soldiers had lost their limbs ? Did he count them , did he see from his café all those thousands of victims ?
And, he is wrong : frostbites were not caused by lack of winter clothing, but by the winter cold . Besides : from what period are dating the remarks of Malaparte ?

As there was no order of Hitler no to give the Ostheer winter clothing, one can not hold him responsible for the freezing losses.

There was no fighting in Yakutia, which is a part of Siberia .

While November was cold in some regions, the frostbite losses were very low, which indicates that november was not that cold and that most soldiers were able to protect themselves against the cold .

Roberts is also wrong when he refers to Napoleon : the winter of 1813 started very late, when most of the remainings of Napoleon's army had left Russia.

If Roberts is repeating the Napoleon propaganda that the defeat in Russia was caused by the winter, one can give him up as a serious historian .
I quoted a Soviet academician. According to his research, published in June 1942, most German cars failed at temperatures of -10 -15. There was no winter fuel. Winter grease is not enough and again clothes. This is not propaganda, it's true. In December 1941, frost deprived the Germans of weapons and a large number of soldiers.
The figure of 228 thousand frostbitten in the winter of 1941/1942 is known. Legs, hands, face are not there many body parts could be damaged including frost.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Why did the German army throw so much equipment in December 1941?
In June 1942, Academician S.S. Nametkin sent a memo to the head of the Red Army Fuel Supply Department, Brigade Engineer M.I. Kormilitsyn. In it the course of the battle near Moscow is considered "from a special point of view" - at an angle to supply the German army with fuel and lubricants. The academician watched events on the Western Front and studied the composition and properties of motor fuel and lubricating oils used by the German army. It should be noted that oil reserves in Germany itself were negligible. Long before the war, it established the production of fuel from coal and coal tar, peat and wood waste, water gas, etc. In general, the so-called synthetic gasoline was produced. Its indispensable components are aromatic hydrocarbons, primarily benzene, which solidifies at a temperature of plus 5.4 ° C.

Image

For reference. The usual, from oil, gasoline fully works, as a rule, to minus 45-55 degrees. This is how the Red Army was supplied. The main amount of German fuel lost its legal capacity already at minus 10-15. Often, mixtures of winter and summer varieties were made. For example, one of the samples of gasoline used by the Germans, worked out in the spring on the Western Front, froze at minus 36. At minus 28 degrees, the precipitation of the hardened components began. It is clear: in the midst of the cold, such or more "chilly" gasoline, losing its mobility, ceased to flow into the engine. The technique turned out to be a "pile of metal".

Image

But the winter brands of gasoline Wehrmacht still had. Let us recall the Romanian oil in the hands of the fascists, as well as pre-war supplies from the Soviet Union, trophies ... German "cold-resistant" gasolines: with a low freezing point, low benzene content and high octane number - were not inferior to Soviet ones. True, they went mainly for aviation. Ground-based equipment was used only in the coldest winter season: strict savings were prescribed.
"In the conditions of early winter cold," writes S.S. Nametkin, - all the equipment of the German army stood up, as in the petrol tanks of cars in a frosty morning instead of liquid fuel was porridge - a mixture of the smallest crystals of the fallen benzene with a liquid hard-to-set part of motor fuel. " "The miscalculations of the German General Staff with fuel" were indisputable for him. The same - with lubricants. Here is the testimony of General Gunter Blumentritt: "The harsh climate had an impact on the weapon. The grease on the arms thickened so that it was often impossible to open the bolt, and glycerin or special oils that could be used in low-temperature conditions, we did not have. Under tanks at night we had to maintain a weak fire, so that the engines did not freeze and did not go out of order. "
His note Academician S.S. Nametkin concludes with the conclusion: "An analysis of the data on the composition and properties of fuel and lubricating oils taken for supply in the German army shows that the early winter of 1941-1942. found her with "summer" grades of fuel and oils; the change of "summer" to "winter", including because of the bet on a lightning war, was not prepared enough "... They may ask:" But how can courage, self-sacrifice, heroism, military talent - do they not count? " . "The conclusion of Academician S. S. Nametkin does not put all this in doubt.
On the battlefield our people did their work. And Russian nature - its own. Just a temperature anomaly with regard to the combustible, "opposing" near Moscow, contributed to the glory of our weapons.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Jan 2018 13:09

Ammunition, fuel and food to the troops arrived, there was no winter equipment.

http://detectivebooks.ru/book/41830789/?page=26
On November 30, the thermometer dropped to 40 degrees below zero.

Von Brauchitsch. You are responsible for the outcome of the operation.

Von Bock. And I responsibly fulfill my duty, informing you about the critical situation that is now taking shape. We have been pleading for winter clothes and food for weeks. German soldiers, dressed only in field greatcoats, are fighting with fully equipped winter clothing by the enemy.

Von Brauchitsch. But the winter gear was delivered.

Von Bock. I want to assure you, Field Marshal, that it has not been delivered to the troops. The supply situation has been unsatisfactory since October. We could consider ourselves lucky if we received the essentials to carry out the operation - ammunition, fuel and food. The fact that winter equipment has not arrived is the best indication of how senior management is not aware of the true state of affairs.

Von Brauchitsch. Winter equipment for the army group "Center" was sent from the first of October. I have no statistics on my hands, but Wagner took care of it.

Von Bock. I'm sure the statistics will show that the necessary winter equipment for my army group is reliably hidden in storage and in warehouses far behind the front line. If it exists at all. I repeat, Field Marshal, there was a huge error in the calculations. The main command of the land forces, just like the Fuhrer, was too optimistic about the situation ... Brauchitsch, do you hear me? Hello! Has the connection been interrupted? Brauchitsch, are you listening?

Von Brauchitsch. Bock, what are you saying?

Von Bock. I said that senior management made a mistake in the calculations. Please inform the Fuhrer that Army Group Center is no longer able to complete the task. We no longer have the strength. Are you listening, Brauchitsch?

Von Brauchitsch. Yes, I'm listening. The Fuhrer wants to know when Moscow falls.

Von Bock. Do you understand what is happening here? Do you understand that future events will go their own way? What have they gone beyond the sphere of military decisions and now have a political nature? Army Group "Center" no longer has the strength to control the situation.

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 02 Jan 2018 13:26

25. forbade the liquidation of Oranienbaum bridgehead

Image

26. On July 8 have forbidden to make up for losses in tanks

Image

http://militera.lib.ru/db/0/pdf/halder_eng6.pdf

ljadw
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by ljadw » 02 Jan 2018 18:17

jesk wrote:Ammunition, fuel and food to the troops arrived, there was no winter equipment.

http://detectivebooks.ru/book/41830789/?page=26
On November 30, the thermometer dropped to 40 degrees below zero.

Von Brauchitsch. You are responsible for the outcome of the operation.

Von Bock. And I responsibly fulfill my duty, informing you about the critical situation that is now taking shape. We have been pleading for winter clothes and food for weeks. German soldiers, dressed only in field greatcoats, are fighting with fully equipped winter clothing by the enemy.

Von Brauchitsch. But the winter gear was delivered.

Von Bock. I want to assure you, Field Marshal, that it has not been delivered to the troops. The supply situation has been unsatisfactory since October. We could consider ourselves lucky if we received the essentials to carry out the operation - ammunition, fuel and food. The fact that winter equipment has not arrived is the best indication of how senior management is not aware of the true state of affairs.

Von Brauchitsch. Winter equipment for the army group "Center" was sent from the first of October. I have no statistics on my hands, but Wagner took care of it.

Von Bock. I'm sure the statistics will show that the necessary winter equipment for my army group is reliably hidden in storage and in warehouses far behind the front line. If it exists at all. I repeat, Field Marshal, there was a huge error in the calculations. The main command of the land forces, just like the Fuhrer, was too optimistic about the situation ... Brauchitsch, do you hear me? Hello! Has the connection been interrupted? Brauchitsch, are you listening?

Von Brauchitsch. Bock, what are you saying?

Von Bock. I said that senior management made a mistake in the calculations. Please inform the Fuhrer that Army Group Center is no longer able to complete the task. We no longer have the strength. Are you listening, Brauchitsch?

Von Brauchitsch. Yes, I'm listening. The Fuhrer wants to know when Moscow falls.

Von Bock. Do you understand what is happening here? Do you understand that future events will go their own way? What have they gone beyond the sphere of military decisions and now have a political nature? Army Group "Center" no longer has the strength to control the situation.
Temperature on 30 november at the Kalinin Front : Day : -2C / Night -3 C
Source : This forum : Thread : Early and harsh winter, figures supplied by Art (Russian member ): in december 1941 the temperature did not fall to -40 C.

Your story (the call between Bock and Brauchitz in december 1941) is an invention : in december 1941 Brauchitz was already sick .

Thus, under the bus with this fable .

I note that you are unable to give the exact date of this conversation .

jesk
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Post by jesk » 03 Jan 2018 12:55

ljadw wrote: Temperature on 30 november at the Kalinin Front : Day : -2C / Night -3 C
Source : This forum : Thread : Early and harsh winter, figures supplied by Art (Russian member ): in december 1941 the temperature did not fall to -40 C.

Your story (the call between Bock and Brauchitz in december 1941) is an invention : in december 1941 Brauchitz was already sick .

Thus, under the bus with this fable .

I note that you are unable to give the exact date of this conversation .
On November 30, the conversation took place. In the diary it is written.

Still material for a mistake research. The Fuhrer has instructed...

http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/11.html

30/11/41

The Second Army, which, despite numerous calls for caution, continues to move east, received instructions that it is now not so important to seize enemy territory, how to close ranks and pull up the stragglers, in order to be able to resist the likely attack of the enemy from the side Voronezh, where recently a significant concentration of Russian troops.
The 3rd Panzer Group is still not seriously advanced to the south. A radiogram was sent to the army reminding of the need for an early offensive in the southern direction. Towards evening, I was able to contact Reinhard by telephone; to convince him of the need to hurry was very difficult.
I sent a telex to Guderian, in which I wanted to make it clear that his constant demands for sending reinforcements - today he also demanded them - would not have any effect. The features of the position of this commander seem to be organically related to some features of his character!
Heizinger informed Greyffenberg that the forces concentrated by the 2nd Panzer Army for the attack seem to the Führer to be too weak and that the VII Corps should not attack in the 4th Army, since the enemy is supposed to "encircle". In addition, Heisinger said that the current attack is nothing more than a prelude to subsequent attacks on Voronezh and Yaroslavl! I called Brauchitsch and said that I had already instructed Guderian about concentrating the larger forces in the sector of his offensive, but that his opinion on the specifics of the attack of the Fourth Army seemed to me not completely clear. I pointed out - both verbally and in writing - that the army was exhausted and that the only possible thing for her was to try to attack south of the main highway using tactically favorable factors in order to facilitate the offensive north of the highway. As for the "encirclement" of the enemy, I simply do not have troops for this. There is no question of an attack by the forces of the VII Corps, since the corps is at the limit of its capabilities. His unreasonably extended flank is only able to follow the advancing parts of the XX and IX corps so as not to lose contact with them. I once again warned of the danger of a reassessment by the Commander-in-Chief of the combat readiness of the troops of the Army Group. During the conversation, I repeatedly interrupted my speech with a question whether he hears me, because I had the impression that the Commander-in-Chief does not listen to me at all or listens attentively. This thought strengthened even more in my mind when Brauchitsch asked me at the end of the conversation whether an order had been given about the beginning of the attack and for how long it had been scheduled. Certainly [261] something is going wrong in the Supreme Command of the Ground Forces.
Attack of XXXX and XXXXVI Corps has achieved satisfactory success. V body, closing the rows, also moved forward. Far behind his left wing, the 3rd Panzer Group broke through the battle formations of Russian troops in the west of Yakhroma, and we can only hope that tomorrow, in accordance with the plan, the army will finally turn to the south.
Army Group "South" lost Rostov as a result of a battle with superior Russian forces. In the battles with the retreating German troops, a significant part of the urban population also took part. To restore and strengthen the front, Army Group "South" will have to move a considerable distance. Unfortunately, the headquarters of the 2nd Air Fleet is relocated from my front sector to the Mediterranean. This is the end of the "marriage relationship", which continued almost without interruption from the very beginning of the war. Command of aviation units in the sector of the Army Group was headed by Richthofen (VIII Air Corps).

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