German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
RedRight
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 18 Mar 2017, 13:30
Location: Poland

German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#1

Post by RedRight » 23 Mar 2017, 15:32

I have read that on 6th October Wehrmacht had ammunition reserves for only two weeks. How large were in fact German ammunition reserves and how much were they able to produce?

User avatar
Poot
Member
Posts: 581
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 04:38

Re: German ammunition at the end of Septmeber Campaign

#2

Post by Poot » 23 Mar 2017, 17:29

RedRight, are you referring to the end of the Polish campaign in 1939?
Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.


RedRight
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 18 Mar 2017, 13:30
Location: Poland

Re: German ammunition at the end of Septmeber Campaign

#3

Post by RedRight » 23 Mar 2017, 18:16

Poot wrote:RedRight, are you referring to the end of the Polish campaign in 1939?
Pat
Yes.

RedRight
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 18 Mar 2017, 13:30
Location: Poland

Re: German ammunition at the end of Septmeber Campaign

#4

Post by RedRight » 25 Mar 2017, 15:53

I found out that the Germans predicted they will use 1/6 of their ammunition reserves during the September Campaign and they were close to surpass that level. That's the reason of the myth that Wehrmacht was running out of ammunition. In fact they had huge reserves and kept producing.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: German ammunition at the end of Septmeber Campaign

#5

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Mar 2017, 16:38

Sources?

Jan-Hendrik

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#6

Post by Art » 25 Mar 2017, 17:07

In short the German army had quite ample stocks of artillery ammunition (except certain weapons such as infantry mortars or 210-mm heavy howitzers) and production capabilities were considerable. Expenditure in the Polish campaign was about 10-15% of the stocks. There was no reason to see ammunition situation as dangerous

User avatar
Poot
Member
Posts: 581
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 04:38

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#7

Post by Poot » 25 Mar 2017, 21:04

I couldn't find anything on exact numbers, but with regard to small arms ammunition it sounds like pre-war produced/captured Polish ammunition was simply sorted and re-lableled and then distributed to the Wehrmacht for general use.
Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#8

Post by Knouterer » 25 Mar 2017, 22:37

The Luftwaffe expended about 60% of its stock of bombs, including almost all general purpose SC 50 and SC 250 bombs. If there had been any strong military reaction from France and Britain, that would have been a problem; luckily for the Germans, there wasn't.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
JAG13
Member
Posts: 689
Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 02:50

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#9

Post by JAG13 » 26 Mar 2017, 07:41

Knouterer wrote:The Luftwaffe expended about 60% of its stock of bombs, including almost all general purpose SC 50 and SC 250 bombs. If there had been any strong military reaction from France and Britain, that would have been a problem; luckily for the Germans, there wasn't.
Just the usual level of LW Incompetence...

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#10

Post by Art » 26 Mar 2017, 10:26

Ok, according to Müller-Hillebrand German Army's stock of ammunition in September 1939 stood at (thousand rounds):
81-mm mortars - 1865
75-mm infantry guns - 3506
150-mm infantry guns - 212
105-mm light field howitzers - 16036
150-mm heavy field howitzers - 2882
105-mm field cannons - 821
210-mm heavy howitzers (Mrs.18) - 9

Expenditure during September was:
81-mm mortars - 490
75-mm infantry guns - 415
150-mm infantry guns - 25
105-mm howitzers - 1448
150-mm howitzers - 315
105-mm cannons - 94
210-mm howitzers - 0.12 (120 rounds)
As noted in the book there was also a large stock of unfilled shells which were filled with explosives after Sept 39.

For comparison, expenditure in the West campaign (10.5-20.6.40):
81-mm mortars - 459
75-mm infantry guns - 381
150-mm infantry guns - 82
105-mm howitzers - 1463
150-mm howitzers - 640
105-mm cannons - 249
210-mm howitzers - 16

So stocks were generally large enough to provide for several months of intensive fighting. Which didn't happen in reality, it must be remembered.

Paul_Atreides
Member
Posts: 606
Joined: 09 Sep 2008, 09:05
Location: Russia, St. Petersburg

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#11

Post by Paul_Atreides » 01 Apr 2017, 17:13

Knouterer wrote:The Luftwaffe expended about 60% of its stock of bombs, including almost all general purpose SC 50 and SC 250 bombs. If there had been any strong military reaction from France and Britain, that would have been a problem; luckily for the Germans, there wasn't.

Oh, really? 60%?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/paul_atr ... iginal.jpg
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#12

Post by Paul Lakowski » 01 Apr 2017, 19:43

Paul_Atreides wrote:
Knouterer wrote:The Luftwaffe expended about 60% of its stock of bombs, including almost all general purpose SC 50 and SC 250 bombs. If there had been any strong military reaction from France and Britain, that would have been a problem; luckily for the Germans, there wasn't.

Oh, really? 60%?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/paul_atr ... iginal.jpg
looks more like 18% reduction in stocks compared to prewar stocks but that includes new production in between those periods.

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#13

Post by Knouterer » 01 Apr 2017, 21:07

No idea where those numbers come from but they don't look particularly reliable to me, especially the mysterious increase of some types of ammunition, such as 250 kg. bombs, between 1.5.1940 and 1.6.1940, in spite of heavy fighting.

Wolfgang Fleischer, Deutsche Abwurfmunition bis 1945, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart 2003, p. 69 (my translation): "Rather more serious was the fact that in the three weeks of this campaign (Poland) almost all 50 kg and 250 kg bombs had been expended. Before the start of the war stocks had been just over 20,000 (? Possibly refers to 250 kg bombs). By the end of September 1939, only incendiary bombs B1E and 10 kg. fragmentation bombs were still available in significant numbers."

Ferenc A. Vajda & Peter Dancey, German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945, Airlife Publishing, Bath 1998, p.51: " Most critical was the fact that after only 22 days of combat the Luftwaffe had exhausted 60% of its bomb stocks. This rendered further attacks impossible in the immediate future, including any in the West."

By the time the Battle of Britain got underway, the Luftwaffe had not actually run out of bombs, but there certainly was a shortage. Bomb casings were made of lower grade steels, welded instead of cast or extruded in one piece, causing bombs to break up on impact instead of penetrating (although this was only a problem against "hard" targets, not so much when bombing cities), captured Polish bombs were used, and so were concrete bombs with a relatively small explosive charge, normally only used for training.
Last edited by Knouterer on 01 Apr 2017, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#14

Post by Knouterer » 01 Apr 2017, 21:17

I might add that the 600-, 700- and 800-kg bombs in that list did not even exist, as far as I know.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

Re: German ammunition at the end of September Campaign 1939

#15

Post by Paul Lakowski » 01 Apr 2017, 21:31

Knouterer wrote:I might add that the 600-, 700- and 800-kg bombs in that list did not even exist, as far as I know.
they are not on that list until the invasion of the west and even then their were "less than 1000"?

Post Reply

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”