Barbarossa sabotage plan

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jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 20 Dec 2017 23:01

One of the 325 million Americans laughs in this thread. Maybe you are colored? Well, this is fate. Not you, anyone who reads. My thoughts in detail are different, consistent with the general line of American history!
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

William L. Shirer

On July 29 Guderian warned all General Staff officers that henceforth they must take the lead in
being good Nazis, loyal and true to the Leader.
Every General Staff officer must be a National Socialist officer-leader not only … by his
model attitude toward political questions but by actively co-operating in the political
indoctrination of younger commanders in accordance with the tenets of the Fuehrer …
In judging and selecting General Staff officers, superiors should place traits of character
and spirit above the mind. A rascal may be ever so cunning but in the hour of need he will
nevertheless fail because he is a rascal.
I expect every General Staff officer immediately to declare himself a convert or adherent
to my views and to make an announcement to that effect in public. Anyone unable to do so
should apply for his removal from the General Staff.*
So far as is known no one applied.
With this, comments a German military historian, “the story of the General Staff as an autonomous
entity may be said to have come to an end.” This elite group, founded by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau
and built up by Moltke to be the pillar of the nation, which had ruled Germany during the First World
War, dominated the Weimar Republic and forced even Hitler to destroy the S.A. and murder its leader
when they stood in its way, had been reduced in the summer of 1944 to a pathetic body of fawning,
frightened men. There was to be no more opposition to Hitler, not even any criticism of him. The
once mighty Army, like every other institution in the Third Reich, would go down with him, its
leaders too benumbed now, too lacking in the courage which the handful of conspirators alone had
shown, to raise their voices—let alone do anything—to stay the hand of the one man who they by now
fully realized was leading them and the German people rapidly to the most awful catastrophe in the
history of their beloved Fatherland.
This paralysis of the mind and will of grown-up men, raised as Christians, supposedly disciplined in
the old virtues, boasting of their code of honor, courageous in the face of death on the battlefield, is
astonishing, though perhaps it can be grasped if one remembers the course of German history,
outlined in an earlier chapter, which made blind obedience to temporal rulers the highest virtue of
Germanic man and put a premium on servility. By now the generals knew the evil of the man before
whom they groveled.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 12:15

The Germans are 150 km from Moscow on January 8, 1942 - March 31, 1943. Why did not they take Moscow? Hitler led the army on December 19. This is not a mere coincidence.

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http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RR ... Keitel.pdf

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Gorque
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by Gorque » 21 Dec 2017 14:34

Hi Jesk:

I believe that after the Soviet winter offensive beginning on 10-1-'42, the Germans were no longer 150 km from Moscow. As to why the Germans didn't take Moscow at that time, I'd opine that the Soviets had a say in the outcome.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 15:20

Gorque wrote:
I believe that after the Soviet winter offensive beginning on 10-1-'42, the Germans were no longer 150 km from Moscow. As to why the Germans didn't take Moscow at that time, I'd opine that the Soviets had a say in the outcome.
150 km closest to Moscow, German positions were held until March 1943. 228 thousand frost-bitten Germans lost 41/42 winter. The army's unpreparedness for war in the winter caused problems. More harm from the order of Hitler to cling to the territory. Did not allow the Germans to regroup and inflict a counterblow, after eliminating the initial inconveniences with the climate.

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David Thompson
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by David Thompson » 21 Dec 2017 16:38

jesk -- You wrote:
One of the 325 million Americans laughs in this thread. Maybe you are colored?
Mind your tone in posting. AHF doesn't permit racist or anti-national slurs. If you meant something else, pay more attention to your words.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Dec 2017 18:28

jesk wrote:The Germans are 150 km from Moscow on January 8, 1942 - March 31, 1943. Why did not they take Moscow? Hitler led the army on December 19. This is not a mere coincidence.
Is this supposed to be one of the 9.47 million Belorussian laughs in this thread?

By the exact same "logic"... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The French entered Moscow on September 14, 1812. Why did they take Moscow? Napoleon led the army on September 14, 1812. This is not a mere coincidence.

Or... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Americans are 200 km from Moscow on April 12, 1945. Why did not they take Berlin? Eisenhower led the army on April 12. This is not mere coincidence.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 18:49

Richard Anderson wrote:
jesk wrote:The Germans are 150 km from Moscow on January 8, 1942 - March 31, 1943. Why did not they take Moscow? Hitler led the army on December 19. This is not a mere coincidence.
Is this supposed to be one of the 9.47 million Belorussian laughs in this thread?

By the exact same "logic"... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The French entered Moscow on September 14, 1812. Why did they take Moscow? Napoleon led the army on September 14, 1812. This is not a mere coincidence.

Or... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Americans are 200 km from Moscow on April 12, 1945. Why did not they take Berlin? Eisenhower led the army on April 12. This is not mere coincidence.
It's trolling. :) :) :) Such attempts to marginalize my posts. We have normal participants, work with documents, and that writes nonsense.
And there is no logic. 2 of 3 army groups in 1942 did not conduct combat operations. 70% of the Wehrmacht remained idle. Therefore, any comparison with Eisenhower in April 1945 is not appropriate.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 19:00

Richard Anderson, You are a Scientist. :) So do I. :P Work further and do not disturb others.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0#p2098960
Last edited by jesk on 21 Dec 2017 19:26, edited 1 time in total.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 19:25

history research

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doogal
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by doogal » 21 Dec 2017 20:47

Army Group North fought a defensive war from 1942 south of Leningrad including battles around Demyansk and Kholm, and which saw 16th and 18th armies fight off several Soviet offensives and other operations.

How can we in light of your RESEARCH (and attached annotated map) account for this ? war in an area you state has no war.....

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 21 Dec 2017 21:27

doogal wrote:Army Group North fought a defensive war from 1942 south of Leningrad including battles around Demyansk and Kholm, and which saw 16th and 18th armies fight off several Soviet offensives and other operations.

How can we in light of your RESEARCH (and attached annotated map) account for this ? war in an area you state has no war.....
Defensive war is not serious. The population of the USSR is 200 million, of which men at the age of 14-50 are 50 million. How many Russians need to be killed to win the war? Such a war without German influence is called the abandonment of initiative in operations. Enormous forces fought back from the Russians, as from annoying flies.

16. Armee

Order of battle (22 Apr 1942)

At the disposal of the 16. Armee
- 123. Infanterie-Division (part)
- 281. Sicherungs-Division (part)
XXXIX. Armeekorps (mot)
- ½ Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 2 (at the disposal of/in transit)
- 1/3 121. Infanterie-Division (at the disposal of)
Gruppe Lang (218. Infanterie-Division (part)) (subordinated to XXXIX. Armeekorps (mot))
- 1/3 123. Infanterie-Division
- 8. Panzer-Division (most)
Gruppe Scherer (Stab 281. Sicherungs-Division) (subordinated to XXXIX. Armeekorps (mot))
- 1/3 329. Infanterie-Division
- 1/3 122. Infanterie-Division
- ¼ 121. Infanterie-Division
II. Armeekorps
- 1/3 218. Infanterie-Division
- 1/3 225. Infanterie-Division
- 32. Infanterie-Division
- 12. Infanterie-Division
- SS-Totenkopf-Division (most)
- 30. Infanterie-Division
- 281. Sicherungs-Division (part)
- 290. Infanterie-Division
Gruppe Zorn (subordinated to II. Armeekorps)
- Gruppe Eicke-Stab SS-Totenkopf-Division
- Gruppe Artillerie-Kommandeur (Arko) 105
X. Armeekorps
- 18. Infanterie-Division (mot)
- 1/3 81. Infanterie-Division
- 1 Abteilung Panzer-Regiment 203
- Polizei-Regiment Nord
- 281. Sicherungs-Division (part)
- Gruppe Meindl (Luftwaffen-Feldregimenter)
- 1/3 329. Infanterie-Division
- 2/3 329. Infanterie-Division
Korpsgruppe von Seydlitz (subordinated to X. Armeekorps)
- 8. leichte Division
- 1/3 122. Infanterie-Division
- 5. leichte Division + ½ 7. Gebirgs-Division



To surround and take prisoner the right war. All the rest was thought up by Germans.

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jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 22 Dec 2017 21:41

The principle of gravitation is applicable to drawing up of an individual opinion on the events taking place.

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The more people hold any opinion, the more the influence of public opinion on the individual. It is psychologically difficult to oppose one's opinion to the whole state with 80 million people residing in it. The plans of the Germans for 1942 are meaningless, but millions of people are involved in this, they did not object, so this makes sense. The fundamental principles are being questioned. To say that in the events of 1942 there was no point, while Germany and 80 million people reacted to everything as a normal course of history. It's like doubting the reality of the sun. It shines, and someone says it does not. Most do not even realize that events taken for granted are in fact nonsense. Exactly what 80 million people have such an opinion, do not have enough imagination to present that everyone as one was mistaken.

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 24 Dec 2017 00:34

I think this is the main problem when considering the Second World War. People lack the courage and imagination to question the choice of the whole state. Whose opinion is stronger, mine or Germany !?

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Criticism of the "Barbarossa" plan is met, but only in the context of underestimation of the enemy. Action on a national scale by definition makes sense. We are told a military plan - so it is. The fact that the plan itself was devoid of military meaning, the state is not capable of such. To enter into a war without a plan. "Barbarossa" is not a military plan, it is nonsense.

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Christoph Awender
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by Christoph Awender » 24 Dec 2017 12:31

Jesk,

It is obviously that you lack the most basic knowledge about many things to understand the topic you are talking about. One basic thing is that you obviously never heard anything about war from the lower levels of scale meaning- companies, battalions, individuals. Just one example would be not taking Moscow... talk to men which were there... (before the discussion starts - Yes I did - many times.). No mysterious sabotage plan caused their feet bleeding from cold and marching, no mysterious sabotage plan let them die by a soviet tree sniper in an unknown forest in russia, no mysterious sabotage plan caused his truck stuck in meters of mud not being able to advance 100m a day, no mysterious sabotage plan caused losses in front of well camouflaged "Pak-Riegel".....you won´t believe it... every individual veteran... every company, battalion, regimental diary tells you in great detail why this war was lost.... And I give you a hint.... none supports your theory.

/Christoph

jesk
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Re: Barbarossa sabotage plan

Post by jesk » 24 Dec 2017 19:17

Christoph Awender wrote:Jesk,

It is obviously that you lack the most basic knowledge about many things to understand the topic you are talking about. One basic thing is that you obviously never heard anything about war from the lower levels of scale meaning- companies, battalions, individuals. Just one example would be not taking Moscow... talk to men which were there... (before the discussion starts - Yes I did - many times.). No mysterious sabotage plan caused their feet bleeding from cold and marching, no mysterious sabotage plan let them die by a soviet tree sniper in an unknown forest in russia, no mysterious sabotage plan caused his truck stuck in meters of mud not being able to advance 100m a day, no mysterious sabotage plan caused losses in front of well camouflaged "Pak-Riegel".....you won´t believe it... every individual veteran... every company, battalion, regimental diary tells you in great detail why this war was lost.... And I give you a hint.... none supports your theory.

/Christoph
This is poetry. Killed in the forest by a sniper, bleed from the cold and marching ... Try to still read, for example, Halder's diary, about the differences between Hitler and the generals. If it were not for Hitler's intervention, the offensive against Moscow would begin in July, which allowed the Germans to safely avoid the influence of climate on the course of hostilities. Bagration, Vistula-Oder, there are also problems at the macro level.


The theory is known. Different people expressed. Examples, the Russian historian Kuptsov.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... %2F1340595

New Zealand Greg Hallett.

http://yournewswire.com/cia-hitler-brit ... nt-israel/

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