Oil war against CCCP

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Hanny
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 10 Feb 2019 13:23

Stugbit wrote:
10 Feb 2019 01:37


Do you know how the Soviet sabotaged the oil fields? Some people says that the sabotage worked very well. I think they certainly didn`t explode it, because this would turn the whole field useless and they probably were considering capturing the lost territory back from the Germans in the future when they left.
They capped the wells with concrete, below that was a mix of metal and wood, then poured concrete, below that more wood and metal etc, this prevents/delays diamond drillilling out of the well, making getting a derrick in place and the re drilling a time consuming operation.
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by doogal » 10 Feb 2019 13:56

They capped the wells with concrete, below that was a mix of metal and wood, then poured concrete, below that more wood and metal etc, this prevents/delays diamond drillilling out of the well, making getting a derrick in place and the re drilling a time consuming operation.

Did the Germans ever try to drill parallel shafts to the well depth ??? or did they just not have enough time before they withdrew/ were ejected from the Maikop fields:

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 10 Feb 2019 16:46

So the oil fields were not absolutely inaccessible or useless. If the Germans had the time to spend in trying to fix them, they would be able to retrieve oil after a while.

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 10 Feb 2019 18:52

doogal wrote:
10 Feb 2019 13:56
They capped the wells with concrete, below that was a mix of metal and wood, then poured concrete, below that more wood and metal etc, this prevents/delays diamond drillilling out of the well, making getting a derrick in place and the re drilling a time consuming operation.

Did the Germans ever try to drill parallel shafts to the well depth ??? or did they just not have enough time before they withdrew/ were ejected from the Maikop fields:
Iirc they tried to re drill and never got the deep wells in operation, what was extracted was from the lakes of surface oil that abounded in the region and shallow wells to near surface oil fields.
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Parsons » 14 Feb 2019 13:11

Although the threat of "resource wars" over possession of oil reserves is often exaggerated, the sum total of the political effects generated by the oil industry makes oil a leading cause of war. Between one-quarter and one-half of interstate wars since 1973 have been connected to one or more oil-related causal mechanisms. No other commodity has had such an impact on international security.

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 14 Feb 2019 19:15

Stugbit wrote:
10 Feb 2019 16:46
So the oil fields were not absolutely inaccessible or useless. If the Germans had the time to spend in trying to fix them, they would be able to retrieve oil after a while.
The Germans did not go to the Caucasus because the needed the oil of the Caucasus, but becaused they believed/ had convinced themselves that without this oil the SU would collaps .
If they captured the oil and the SU collapsed, their own production + the import from Romania would be sufficient to fight a war against Britain and USA : it is not so that with the Caucasian oil they could defeat Britain /USA and without this oil,they would be defeated by Britain + USA .
In the HTL they had in 1942 9.4 million tons of oil to fight against the Western Allies and the SU ,in 1943 10.4 million and in 1944 6,6 million .
In the ATL (SU out ) they would have the same amount of oil ,maybe increased by 1 million ton to fight against the Western Allies and the SU .Or against the Western Allies only .
Would they have more oil in 1944 if they used the Caucasian oil ? Or would the refineries and railways used for this oil also not be eliminated by the Allies .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 15 Feb 2019 16:03

Yes, I see that point. Antony Beevor said that the Germans made use of the Soviet oil imports for doing operation Barbarossa and they also needed the oil to continue with large operations. So, they not only invaded Caucasus to cut the Soviet oil supply but also to have reserves?

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 15 Feb 2019 16:28

No : before Fall Blau, Hitler said : I need the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war ,but when he left the Caucasus after Stalingrad, he continued the war , Thus it is a fallacy that Germany needed the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war in the West . The truth is that Germany hoped to finish the war in the east by capturing the Caucasus oil .The Germans consumed most of their oil in the East, if the war in the East was over they would need less oil, not more oil .
I do not believe Beevor : in 1940/1941 Germany had more than 15 million tons of oil,of which some 5 million imported,of those less than 1 million ton from the SU .Thus the importance of the Soviet imports for Barbarossa is very small. And about these large operations : Fall Blau and Kursk were such operations, where no Soviet imported oil was used . And ,even if they could transport 1 million tons of oil to Germany, it would not help them, as the Allied airforces would destroy this oil .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 16 Feb 2019 01:54

ljadw wrote:
15 Feb 2019 16:28
No : before Fall Blau, Hitler said : I need the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war ,but when he left the Caucasus after Stalingrad, he continued the war , Thus it is a fallacy that Germany needed the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war in the West . The truth is that Germany hoped to finish the war in the east by capturing the Caucasus oil .The Germans consumed most of their oil in the East, if the war in the East was over they would need less oil, not more oil .
I do not believe Beevor : in 1940/1941 Germany had more than 15 million tons of oil,of which some 5 million imported,of those less than 1 million ton from the SU .Thus the importance of the Soviet imports for Barbarossa is very small. And about these large operations : Fall Blau and Kursk were such operations, where no Soviet imported oil was used . And ,even if they could transport 1 million tons of oil to Germany, it would not help them, as the Allied airforces would destroy this oil .
But they spent three panzer divisions and more untis going after Baku. Why would they do that if wasn`t for the oil fields?

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 07:31

It was to take away the oil fields from the Soviets, NOT to use them themselves .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 16 Feb 2019 15:06

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 07:31
It was to take away the oil fields from the Soviets, NOT to use them themselves .
But if they just wanted to cut the supply off, they could have done it just by reaching the Volga river. It was not necessary to send the forces far away as Baku.

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 16:10

It is very questionable that they could cut the oil transports by reaching the Wolga .
The most simple way to cut the oil transports was to occupy the oil fields .This was much easier to to advance to Astrachan .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 16 Feb 2019 16:44

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 16:10
It is very questionable that they could cut the oil transports by reaching the Wolga .
The most simple way to cut the oil transports was to occupy the oil fields .This was much easier to to advance to Astrachan .
It was needed to reach Astrakhan to cut the supplies? Couldn`t they just cut it in Stalingrad? It`s the same river. Even so, I think it would be easier to reach Astrakhan than Baku, though.

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2019 17:37

ljadw wrote:
15 Feb 2019 16:28
No : before Fall Blau, Hitler said : I need the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war ,but when he left the Caucasus after Stalingrad, he continued the war , Thus it is a fallacy that Germany needed the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war in the West . The truth is that Germany hoped to finish the war in the east by capturing the Caucasus oil .The Germans consumed most of their oil in the East, if the war in the East was over they would need less oil, not more oil .
I do not believe Beevor : in 1940/1941 Germany had more than 15 million tons of oil,of which some 5 million imported,of those less than 1 million ton from the SU .Thus the importance of the Soviet imports for Barbarossa is very small. And about these large operations : Fall Blau and Kursk were such operations, where no Soviet imported oil was used . And ,even if they could transport 1 million tons of oil to Germany, it would not help them, as the Allied airforces would destroy this oil .
Made up numbers. Argument, again falls apart because it contradicts the actual historical record.
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2019 17:38

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 07:31
It was to take away the oil fields from the Soviets, NOT to use them themselves .
contradicts the known textual history. Argument falls apart due to being invention.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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