Oil war against CCCP

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ljadw
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 19:28

Hanny wrote:
16 Feb 2019 17:37
ljadw wrote:
15 Feb 2019 16:28
No : before Fall Blau, Hitler said : I need the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war ,but when he left the Caucasus after Stalingrad, he continued the war , Thus it is a fallacy that Germany needed the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war in the West . The truth is that Germany hoped to finish the war in the east by capturing the Caucasus oil .The Germans consumed most of their oil in the East, if the war in the East was over they would need less oil, not more oil .
I do not believe Beevor : in 1940/1941 Germany had more than 15 million tons of oil,of which some 5 million imported,of those less than 1 million ton from the SU .Thus the importance of the Soviet imports for Barbarossa is very small. And about these large operations : Fall Blau and Kursk were such operations, where no Soviet imported oil was used . And ,even if they could transport 1 million tons of oil to Germany, it would not help them, as the Allied airforces would destroy this oil .
Made up numbers. Argument, again falls apart because it contradicts the actual historical record.
What historical record ?
And, numbers are not made up .
The truth is that Germany did not need the oil of the Caucasus and that it could not transport this oil to Germany .

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Stugbit
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 16 Feb 2019 19:36

But how can A. Beevor be wrong, Ljadw? The guy is very respected in the academic community, they even made a movie after one of his books. He cannot simply lied about or commited a mistake like that.

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2019 19:58

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 19:28
Hanny wrote:
16 Feb 2019 17:37
ljadw wrote:
15 Feb 2019 16:28
No : before Fall Blau, Hitler said : I need the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war ,but when he left the Caucasus after Stalingrad, he continued the war , Thus it is a fallacy that Germany needed the oil of the Caucasus to continue the war in the West . The truth is that Germany hoped to finish the war in the east by capturing the Caucasus oil .The Germans consumed most of their oil in the East, if the war in the East was over they would need less oil, not more oil .
I do not believe Beevor : in 1940/1941 Germany had more than 15 million tons of oil,of which some 5 million imported,of those less than 1 million ton from the SU .Thus the importance of the Soviet imports for Barbarossa is very small. And about these large operations : Fall Blau and Kursk were such operations, where no Soviet imported oil was used . And ,even if they could transport 1 million tons of oil to Germany, it would not help them, as the Allied airforces would destroy this oil .
Made up numbers. Argument, again falls apart because it contradicts the actual historical record.
What historical record ?
And, numbers are not made up .
The truth is that Germany did not need the oil of the Caucasus and that it could not transport this oil to Germany .
The one you always ignore.
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6 ... 88e29c0610

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qCe ... il&f=false

The truth is AH and his civilian and military advisers explained they did need it to win the war.

Raeder "The oil situation is very critical, the naval requirements have been cut by 50% thus has imposed an intolerable restriction on our vessels"
General der Infanterie Georg Thomas, head of the War Economy and Armaments Office, had warned both Goring and Keitel in a detailed report that stocks would be exhausted by late October.

'It is crucial,to seize quickly and exploit the Caucasus oilfields, at least the areas around Maikop and Grozny. In oilfields that have not been completely
destroyed, it will take about a month to resume production, and another month for its transport; the areas concerned will have to have been seized by us by no later than the end of the second month of operation: this includes transport facilities (tankers on the Black Sea, an operational route from Odessa to Przemysl on a Russian gauge so as to take advantage of Russian stocks of tankwagons). If this is not successful, we must expect the most serious
repercussions, with unpredictable consequences for military operations after 1.9.41 and for the survival of the economy.

German army de mechanised as a result of lack of fuel, German and Italian naval ops were curtailed due to lack of fuel.

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/e ... o-ger.html
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

ljadw
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 20:56

The opinion of Raeder is irrelevant : there is no proof that the U Boats would sink more MV if the KM had more oil .
And Thomas was wrong : the oil supplies were not exhausted in October,there were no dire consequences after 1.9.1941 and the German economy did not collaps in 1942 .Without the oil from the Caucasus, Germany was able to build more tamks, aircraft, to produce more oil.
And that the operations of the HSF and of the Regia Marina were curtailed,did not hinder the Axis,and did not help the Allies .
Thoimas was also wrong when he said that after 2 months the oil production of the Caucasus would be resumed and the oil would arrive in Germany . This would take years , And Germany had no years .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 21:04

Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 19:36
But how can A. Beevor be wrong, Ljadw? The guy is very respected in the academic community, they even made a movie after one of his books. He cannot simply lied about or commited a mistake like that.
I hope, I am certain that you are sarcastic : the claims of Beevor about the Russian rapes in Germany in 1945 are nonsense, and if he had done some research,instead of parotting 2 German feminists, he would have known that what he told was impossible . And his Stalingrad book is not better .
The fact that a movie was made after one of his books,proves nothing : the Longest Day and A Bridge too far were also made after books .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Stugbit » 16 Feb 2019 21:23

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 21:04
Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 19:36
But how can A. Beevor be wrong, Ljadw? The guy is very respected in the academic community, they even made a movie after one of his books. He cannot simply lied about or commited a mistake like that.
I hope, I am certain that you are sarcastic : the claims of Beevor about the Russian rapes in Germany in 1945 are nonsense, and if he had done some research,instead of parotting 2 German feminists, he would have known that what he told was impossible . And his Stalingrad book is not better .
The fact that a movie was made after one of his books,proves nothing : the Longest Day and A Bridge too far were also made after books .
I had look here on the internet and couldn`t find much controversy about his work. At least not in the Western Countries. In Russia, however, things are different. Perhaps you could provide me with more information on the issue?

And the fact alone that he got data from a feminist doesn`t necessarily mean that it`s fault data what he`s using. Don`t generalize things!

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2019 21:48

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 20:56
The opinion of Raeder is irrelevant : there is no proof that the U Boats would sink more MV if the KM had more oil .
And Thomas was wrong : the oil supplies were not exhausted in October,there were no dire consequences after 1.9.1941 and the German economy did not collaps in 1942 .Without the oil from the Caucasus, Germany was able to build more tamks, aircraft, to produce more oil.
And that the operations of the HSF and of the Regia Marina were curtailed,did not hinder the Axis,and did not help the Allies .
Thoimas was also wrong when he said that after 2 months the oil production of the Caucasus would be resumed and the oil would arrive in Germany . This would take years , And Germany had no years .
No the people of that time opinion is relevant. Its why they do what they did do.
Not all opinions are equal, and yours is less so than theirs.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

ljadw
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 22:12

No one denies that there were rapes when the Soviets came in Germany,the opposite would have been a miracle, but the 2 German feminists said that all German women who had a child from a Soviet soldier, were raped . And that is nonsense .Sander and Johr were talking about 2 million German women that were ''raped '',but used as definition of rape : sex with a person in power .
In an interview wit the Guardian in 2002, Beevor surpassed the two women,by saying , without giving a proof,that the Soviets raped every German woman from eight to eighty.All this is nonsense and disqualifies Beevor as a serious historian .
More information can be found on History Stack Exchange : What is the basis of Russian criticism of Antony Beevor's book ?
And the whole thing has also been discussed on this forum .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 22:15

Hanny wrote:
16 Feb 2019 21:48
ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 20:56
The opinion of Raeder is irrelevant : there is no proof that the U Boats would sink more MV if the KM had more oil .
And Thomas was wrong : the oil supplies were not exhausted in October,there were no dire consequences after 1.9.1941 and the German economy did not collaps in 1942 .Without the oil from the Caucasus, Germany was able to build more tamks, aircraft, to produce more oil.
And that the operations of the HSF and of the Regia Marina were curtailed,did not hinder the Axis,and did not help the Allies .
Thoimas was also wrong when he said that after 2 months the oil production of the Caucasus would be resumed and the oil would arrive in Germany . This would take years , And Germany had no years .
No the people of that time opinion is relevant. Its why they do what they did do.
Not all opinions are equal, and yours is less so than theirs.
Hitler said : if I do not have the oil of the Caucasus, I must stop this war. He did not have the oil of the Caucasus , but he did not stop the war .
This proves that Hitler did not need the oil of the Caucasus .
All this has been discussed and mentioned in Germany and WWII .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 16 Feb 2019 22:23

For Germany the oil of the Caucasus was as important as the oil of the ""Middle East "" = Iraq and Iran : NOT important at all .
Germany had enough oil til the summer of 1944 ,when the allies destroyed the synthetic oil plants and prevented the transport of the other oil to the front .If Germany had captured the oil fields in 1942, the results of the air attacks would have been the same .If the oil remained in the Caucasus, it would not help Germany, if the oil was in Germany, it also would be destroyed .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2019 22:33

ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 22:15
Hanny wrote:
16 Feb 2019 21:48
ljadw wrote:
16 Feb 2019 20:56
The opinion of Raeder is irrelevant : there is no proof that the U Boats would sink more MV if the KM had more oil .
And Thomas was wrong : the oil supplies were not exhausted in October,there were no dire consequences after 1.9.1941 and the German economy did not collaps in 1942 .Without the oil from the Caucasus, Germany was able to build more tamks, aircraft, to produce more oil.
And that the operations of the HSF and of the Regia Marina were curtailed,did not hinder the Axis,and did not help the Allies .
Thoimas was also wrong when he said that after 2 months the oil production of the Caucasus would be resumed and the oil would arrive in Germany . This would take years , And Germany had no years .
No the people of that time opinion is relevant. Its why they do what they did do.
Not all opinions are equal, and yours is less so than theirs.
Hitler said : if I do not have the oil of the Caucasus, I must stop this war. He did not have the oil of the Caucasus , but he did not stop the war .
This proves that Hitler did not need the oil of the Caucasus .
All this has been discussed and mentioned in Germany and WWII .
Context, if i dont get the oil will lose so i must end the war if we fail. He was unable to end the war and lost the war. Your a revisionist and immune to evidence that does not suit your ideology, as has been pointed out many time on many boards to you.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1020261.pdf
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 17 Feb 2019 11:08

I am not surprised that you are using as source nonsense written by a major of the USAF,who is unable to understand that the reality of WWII Europe was not the same as the situation of post WWII USA .
The man ''thinks '' that because the post war USAF is heavily depending on oil, the WM was also heavily depending on oil,on the same level .
And thus, he writes nonsense as
Oil proved to be Germany's undoing
Synthetic fuel proved vulnerable to Allied air attacks . This ia the same as saying : it is cold in the winter .
Than the major uses unreliable estimations from the British air department about the Soviets and the Germans, he also accept as truth what the liar Speer is claiming .
Someone who is parotting : The Germans are likely to run out of oil before very long unless they get the Caucasus without delay, proves to be an ignoramus :
what is very long ?
why would it be important if it was true, which it is not .
The truth is that the Germans did not run out of oil because they did not get the Caucasus and the truth is also that if they got the Caucasus, they still would run out of oil .
And an other nonsense from the major :
P 14 : The SU had the oil,the food and the raw materials that the Germans needed desperately to continue the war .
This is not true : Germany did not need the oil,food and raw materials to continue the war, because ,and this is a historical fact, Germany did not get the oil from the Caucasus, the yield of the food and raw materials from the SU was negative (it costed more that the Germans received ) ,and still Germany continued the war .
Hitler did not invade the SU for its oil,its food,its raw materials . Hitler hoped ,imagined that after 20 years the occupied territories in the East would make a worldpower from Germany . This would be the realisation of his dreams as a child when he was reading eagerly the books of Karl May .But everyone knew ( but wisely remained silent ) that this would never happen, because, whatever the major is imagining, the colonisation of the East would be Germany's undoing .
ONE example : the exploitation of the Caucasus oil would ruin Germany . The only viable solution was the synthetic oil industry . The fact that the major is unable to understand this, proves that his dissertation is good for under the Greyhound bus .
Europe is Europe, USA are USA and both shall never meet each other .
Thus ,look for something else instead of what a major of the USAF is writing about the war in the East .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Hanny » 17 Feb 2019 12:00

ljadw wrote:
17 Feb 2019 11:08
I am not surprised that you are using as source nonsense written by a major of the USAF,who is unable to understand that the reality of WWII Europe was not the same as the situation of post WWII USA .
The man ''thinks '' that because the post war USAF is heavily depending on oil, the WM was also heavily depending on oil,on the same level .
And thus, he writes nonsense as
Oil proved to be Germany's undoing
Synthetic fuel proved vulnerable to Allied air attacks . This ia the same as saying : it is cold in the winter .
Than the major uses unreliable estimations from the British air department about the Soviets and the Germans, he also accept as truth what the liar Speer is claiming .
Someone who is parotting : The Germans are likely to run out of oil before very long unless they get the Caucasus without delay, proves to be an ignoramus :
what is very long ?
why would it be important if it was true, which it is not .
The truth is that the Germans did not run out of oil because they did not get the Caucasus and the truth is also that if they got the Caucasus, they still would run out of oil .
And an other nonsense from the major :
P 14 : The SU had the oil,the food and the raw materials that the Germans needed desperately to continue the war .
This is not true : Germany did not need the oil,food and raw materials to continue the war, because ,and this is a historical fact, Germany did not get the oil from the Caucasus, the yield of the food and raw materials from the SU was negative (it costed more that the Germans received ) ,and still Germany continued the war .
Hitler did not invade the SU for its oil,its food,its raw materials . Hitler hoped ,imagined that after 20 years the occupied territories in the East would make a worldpower from Germany . This would be the realisation of his dreams as a child when he was reading eagerly the books of Karl May .But everyone knew ( but wisely remained silent ) that this would never happen, because, whatever the major is imagining, the colonisation of the East would be Germany's undoing .
ONE example : the exploitation of the Caucasus oil would ruin Germany . The only viable solution was the synthetic oil industry . The fact that the major is unable to understand this, proves that his dissertation is good for under the Greyhound bus .
Europe is Europe, USA are USA and both shall never meet each other .
Thus ,look for something else instead of what a major of the USAF is writing about the war in the East .
Denial and revisionism all in one handy package, Irving must be so proud of you.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

ljadw
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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by ljadw » 17 Feb 2019 12:31

As I expected : you have no counter arguments .
After the Germans failed to capture the Caucasus, they had more oil than before . This proves that the oil of the Caucasus would not help them .
The oil situation of Germany was better after the failure of Blau than before the start of Blau .

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Re: Oil war against CCCP

Post by Peter89 » 18 Feb 2019 07:47

Ljdaw, you can't really say that an American major can't do good research on the topic of the Eastern front / Europe. It's like saying: "A nigger can't be a north pole researcher, it's way too hot down there.". Our sociocultural and ethnic background does have effects on our opinions (like in your case), but it does not exclude us from certain areas of research.

One cannot dismiss all Western authors based on their few false statements in a historian's lifetime. It's not a personal offense towards postsoviet nationals if Beevor states that between eight and eighty every women was raped by the Soviets. I know locations for sure where they were. And I bet Beevor was talking about a limited area as well.

Regarding the oil situation: you can't seriously claim that Germany had oil in abudant supplies. The final outcome of the war was not effected by it, but it was also not effected by many other shortages.

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