Different German Oil Strategy

[ljadw]

The Germans could reach Vladivostok ?? Why did Marcks not insert Vladivostok in the planning ?? Why would the Ostheer stop at the AA line ?
Vladivostok ?? Why not the moon ?

[AbollonPolweder]

You don't get it : 4 / 5 months was the time that Barbarossa would last, 10 weeks/or less was the time needed to defeat the SU .
Already in the first days of July, Halder wrote in his diary that it was not an exaggeration to say that the Soviets were defeated, but he added that the war was not over but would last still a long time .
For Brauchitz and Halder the war would be decided before August, but would continue after August .About Marcks : he drafted the first Barbarossa plan, while there were later additions/corrections, Lossberg,etc,were building on the Marcks plan .

You are a great juggler! It is a good idea to divide "Barbarossa" and "defeat". Let's see the text of Barbarossa:

„Die deutsche Wehrmacht muss darauf vorbereitet sein, auch vor Beendigung des Krieges gegen England Sowjetrussland in einem schnellen Feldzug niederzuwerfen

How do you translate word "niederzuwerfen" into englisch? It could mean : from "defeat" to "restrain". Сouldn't?

In rascher Verfolgung ist dann eine Linie zu erreichen, aus der die russische Luftwaffe reichsdeutsches Gebiet nicht mehr angreifen kann. Das Endziel der Operation ist die Abschirmung gegen das asiatische Rußland aus der allgemeinen Linie Wolga - Archangelsk. So kann erforderlichenfalls das letzte Rußland verbleibende Industriegebiet am Ural durch die Luftwaffe ausgeschaltet werden.

"Barbarossa" means to reach " eine Linie" and if you reach that line it does not mean the end of the war between Germany and the Soviet Union. Stalin could give up, or could continue the war. But that war (operation) would no longer be Barbarossa, it would have a different code name.
About Marcks. I have read the original draft of his plan. While he was on the site wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/.
I do not know if it (draft) is there now.

[AbollonPolweder]

These are some logical assumptions. Yes, the Germans did not take Stalingrad. But Kiev, Voronezh, Rostov, Riga, Krasnodar and many other cities could not resist. By mid-July, the Russians for the defense of Moscow could expose a small number of forces. In the tank groups, apart from the tank divisions, the infantry divisions were listed. Von Bock had every reason to hope for success. Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it. Smolensk - Moscow 369 km.

Right!

Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it.

And I would add - passed it for three weeks.

[AbollonPolweder]

And von Bock was wrong, totally .Because
a AGC was still far,very far away from Moscow .
b armoured spearheads could not go to Moscow without the support of the infantry and artillery

Brilliant point! German armoured divisions NEVER NEVER advanced without the support of the infantry and artillery.
Very fun! You are a real competitor to Stephen Colbert and his Late Show. Or you are kidding?

thus what Bock was asking was an advance to Moscow by the whole AGC, which was impossible

" Bock was wrong", his Chief of Staff Greiffenberg also was wrong, Halder - wrong and only Hitler with ljadw were right!

[Paul Lakowski]

And von Bock was wrong, totally .Because
a AGC was still far,very far away from Moscow .
b armoured spearheads could not go to Moscow without the support of the infantry and artillery

Brilliant point! German armoured divisions NEVER NEVER advanced without the support of the infantry and artillery.
Very fun! You are a real competitor to Stephen Colbert and his Late Show. Or you are kidding?

thus what Bock was asking was an advance to Moscow by the whole AGC, which was impossible

" Bock was wrong", his Chief of Staff Greiffenberg also was wrong, Halder - wrong and only Hitler with ljadw were right!

[/quote ]
[/quote=AbollonPolweder post_id=2158855 time=1537456025 user_id=72749]


nicely done

[jesk]

These are some logical assumptions. Yes, the Germans did not take Stalingrad. But Kiev, Voronezh, Rostov, Riga, Krasnodar and many other cities could not resist. By mid-July, the Russians for the defense of Moscow could expose a small number of forces. In the tank groups, apart from the tank divisions, the infantry divisions were listed. Von Bock had every reason to hope for success. Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it. Smolensk - Moscow 369 km.

Right!

Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it.

And I would add - passed it for three weeks.

Up to Minsk 300 km, passed for 4 days. 75 km per day. On June 25, Hitler ordered the encirclement of the enemy in the Belostok area. Then another Minsk boiler. As a result, the outer front was weakened. If it were not for Hitler's intervention, the Germans could have traveled very quickly to Moscow. Hovered mainly from the supply. 1,000 km in 2 weeks is easy. Instead of a dense ring of encirclement, there were supposed to be barriers to the enemy's way. The main forces only forward!

[jesk]

Hitler already in June 1941 cut the wedges to Moscow, arranging unnecessary encirclements near Minsk and Belostok.

[ljadw]

Brilliant point! German armoured divisions NEVER NEVER advanced without the support of the infantry and artillery.

Lol : I see that you have no arguments and answer on something I did not say .
I said that Guderian's tanks could not go to Moscow without the support of infantry /artillry ,because tanks without support of infantry/artillery are sitting ducks .Besides,even with the support of infantry/artillery,tanks would not make it to Moscow: tanks are not made to drive 1000 km . Infantry can advance 1000 km, tanks not .
One sniper can eliminate a tank, unless the tank is protected by infantry,and let's not talk about things as mines .
The T34 engines needed a general refurb after 250 hours,the German tank engines were not better .And there was the problem of the tracks ...

[Paul Lakowski]

How did Marcks PLAN OTTO intend to deal with the massive logistical requirements?

[ljadw]

These are some logical assumptions. Yes, the Germans did not take Stalingrad. But Kiev, Voronezh, Rostov, Riga, Krasnodar and many other cities could not resist. By mid-July, the Russians for the defense of Moscow could expose a small number of forces. In the tank groups, apart from the tank divisions, the infantry divisions were listed. Von Bock had every reason to hope for success. Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it. Smolensk - Moscow 369 km.

Right!

Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it.

And I would add - passed it for three weeks.

Up to Minsk 300 km, passed for 4 days. 75 km per day. On June 25, Hitler ordered the encirclement of the enemy in the Belostok area. Then another Minsk boiler. As a result, the outer front was weakened. If it were not for Hitler's intervention, the Germans could have traveled very quickly to Moscow. Hovered mainly from the supply. 1,000 km in 2 weeks is easy. Instead of a dense ring of encirclement, there were supposed to be barriers to the enemy's way. The main forces only forward!

I demand an example of an army that was advancing 1000 km in 2 weeks in WWII .

[ljadw]

How did Marcks PLAN OTTO intend to deal with the massive logistical requirements?

Very easy .
The Soviets would be defeated between the border and the DD line, this would result in the Soviet collaps . After this defeat,small mobile units,using railways, would advance to the AA line,Moscow,etc would fall without fighting,tanks would not be needed,neither artillery, no need for great ammunition amounts, no need for fuel, etc,there would be no massive logistical requirements .Only the proposals from Jesk would demand massive logistical requirements .The tanks and artillery would also later join,also by train .
Tanks moved by train in WWII, even in 1962 when during the Cuba crisis a US AD was going to the coast of Florida, by train . In June 1944 9 and 10 SS PzD were going from Poland to Normandy by train .

[jesk]

Brilliant point! German armoured divisions NEVER NEVER advanced without the support of the infantry and artillery.

Lol : I see that you have no arguments and answer on something I did not say .
I said that Guderian's tanks could not go to Moscow without the support of infantry /artillry ,because tanks without support of infantry/artillery are sitting ducks .Besides,even with the support of infantry/artillery,tanks would not make it to Moscow: tanks are not made to drive 1000 km . Infantry can advance 1000 km, tanks not .
One sniper can eliminate a tank, unless the tank is protected by infantry,and let's not talk about things as mines .

I on foot in day sometimes pass 50 km. In a month likely could 1500!
In tank divisions there was the infantry. These are already your imaginations about tanks in Moscow and without infantry.

The T34 engines needed a general refurb after 250 hours,the German tank engines were not better .And there was the problem of the tracks ...

For an hour the tank can reach a speed of up to 50 km. Count for 250 hours !? A lot of logic, a little mind ..

[jesk]

How did Marcks PLAN OTTO intend to deal with the massive logistical requirements?

First decide what you know about logistics theory? How this is done, then criticism of Marchs is possible.

[jesk]

These are some logical assumptions. Yes, the Germans did not take Stalingrad. But Kiev, Voronezh, Rostov, Riga, Krasnodar and many other cities could not resist. By mid-July, the Russians for the defense of Moscow could expose a small number of forces. In the tank groups, apart from the tank divisions, the infantry divisions were listed. Von Bock had every reason to hope for success. Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it. Smolensk - Moscow 369 km.

Right!

Distance Belostok-Smolensk 609 km and the Germans passed it.

And I would add - passed it for three weeks.

Up to Minsk 300 km, passed for 4 days. 75 km per day. On June 25, Hitler ordered the encirclement of the enemy in the Belostok area. Then another Minsk boiler. As a result, the outer front was weakened. If it were not for Hitler's intervention, the Germans could have traveled very quickly to Moscow. Hovered mainly from the supply. 1,000 km in 2 weeks is easy. Instead of a dense ring of encirclement, there were supposed to be barriers to the enemy's way. The main forces only forward!

I demand an example of an army that was advancing 1000 km in 2 weeks in WWII .

Ask Hitler.

[Paul Lakowski]

In other words, there is no record of how Marcks planned to invade.

Why not just state that?

Looking at the map posted , it looks like the plan only included 5 armies or maybe 60 divisions?